loco wrote:
European Teslas are limited by UNECE regulations and can’t do much.
That’s actually a myth that has been around for quite some time but is not really true: Yes, there are some functionalities you get in the US which you can’t in Europe (like additional battery capacity on call for some models which is not allowed in Europe because the official model spec sheet needs to show a definite battery capacity (no joke!)) but the important autopilot features are exactly the same in the stable software versions in Europe and the US. It’s the same code.
WingsWaterAndWheels wrote:
Humans does not have much issues with this,
Just if they are Norwegian – most people across Europe have substantial challenges with this ;-)
Silvaire wrote:
where buyers have increasingly become uninvolved dilettantes,
I share your pain – not particularly on motorcycles but on technical equipment in general. Core challenge is: How many people are there who could or want to become technically involved so deeply. Many people just want too have a ride – and obviously watch Netflix and get a massage while doing so.
There are so many people (dilettantes ?!?) using computers these days that don’t really know what " forfiles /s /p C:\temp /m *.exe /d 31.12.2020 /c „cmd /c echo @path is new“ would do for them…
Malibuflyer wrote:
That’s actually a myth that has been around for quite some time but is not really true
I’ve owned three Teslas since 2013 and there’s always been differences to US AP behavior. For example requirement of torque on the wheel to engage lane change on AP1 cars.
Malibuflyer wrote:
How many people are there who could or want to become technically involved so deeply. Many people just want to have a ride – and obviously watch Netflix and get a massage while doing so.
They can do as they like… but the advantage of knowing something and being in control is that you don’t have to join them, or be played like a puppet if you don’t want to. Motorcycles, airplanes, houses and a lot of other things I spend my money on are bought to increase my independence and freedom, not to promote being ensnared in manipulation via non-owner-maintainable design strategy, increased government product control plus intentionally planned depreciation & obsolescence. I make my buying choices very much with that in mind, and in doing so there in no “pain”, quite the opposite.
Having said that, and in reference to your comment on computers, I know approximately nothing about software, care even less, and use an e.g. Apple iPhone and iPads in exactly an uninvolved way… but with very little risk: a company provided (zero cost to me) phone and a very $ small outlay for iPads that (in the VFR real world) can serve as my main aircraft navigation system. That way the panel of my plane stays as simple and non-interconnected as it can be and my larger investment in the plane is not tied into a web of e.g. certified Garmin games. That works for me whereas buying a ‘networked’ self driving car, owning a planned obsolescence motorcycle or for that matter flying within ‘the system’ (meaning constant ATC communication and control) does not appeal to me.
Just catching up on this thread….
One thing for sure, the e-Tron was not designed for the French market. “étron” in French means “turd”. And they already have their Q series, Q3, le petit cul, Q5, le moyen cul, and Q7, le gros cul. (cul=arse/ass).
By chance a couple of my neighbours are in the self-driving car business, and I was chatting with them at a street party. They both said flat out that truly self-driving cars, for urban environments, are an unreachable dream at present. And this in a place where you can’t drive one mile without seeing one (Google and others all have them testing round here).
Silvaire wrote:
That way the panel of my plane stays as simple and non-interconnected as it can be and my larger investment in the plane is not tied into a web of e.g. certified Garmin games.
You would love the Battlestar Galactica.
I think the point is, if you don’t care about how stuff works, or simply don’t have the time to find out, you just want it to work, period. Being in that position, deliberately or not, you also know that if it stops working, you have two options:
In a way, technology has transformed us to some upper class English toads that are incapable of doing anything on their own. All we can do these days is to get someone to fix our stuff, or toss it away. This won’t change, it will only become “worse”. The flip side is that this needs to be balanced, so we have all these strange hobbies where we are in full control and can be free, be it knitting or skiing or flying homemade aircraft. Some, lots actually, rejects all of it (except phone and internet of course ) and live alternative lives on desolate places, permanently or for shorter periods.
Malibuflyer wrote:
forfiles /s /p C:\temp /m *.exe /d 31.12.2020 /c „cmd /c echo @path is new
I was embarrassed by the fact that I didn’t either, until I saw the ‘C:\’ and realised the answer was… absolutely nothing.
LeSving wrote:
All we can do these days is to get someone to fix our stuff, or toss it away. This won’t change, it will only become “worse”. The flip side is that this needs to be balanced, so we have all these strange hobbies where we are in full control and can be free, be it knitting or skiing or flying homemade aircraft. Some, lots actually, rejects all of it (except phone and internet of course ) and live alternative lives on desolate places, permanently or for shorter periods.
Who is this “we”? I don’t run the practical aspects of my life like that, and never will. Nor do a great many other people I know. For sure hobbies provide a respite from manipulative nonsense forced onto us, they always did. But so does making your own decisions, deciding what you want to buy into and controlling your own property once selected and bought. Living in desolate places is hardly a prerequisite for doing so.
More or less on topic, for cars, motorcycles and planes my ownership and maintenance approach is as follows:
Cars – I buy them new nowadays, on line, but after I pick them up they don’t go back to the dealer. Based on experience, my current one was chosen to be as simple and non-developmental as possible… and it’s had zero repairs of any kind since I bought it four years ago. Oil changes are done by the same little shop that’s done them on my cars for about 20 years, owned by a non-affiliated Vietnamese immigrant. Any other incidental maintenance, brake pads etc, I do myself.
Motorcycles – 100% of all repairs done by me, on all of them except for the one in Germany that is maintained at his home by a friend whose real job is at a dealership. He does what I’d do if I had the bike at my home (it’s super simple) and he’s paid in cash. God knows when I’ll see that bike again, but it’s been working fine on that basis for me and the previous owner since 1998. I have no practical need at all for a bike that was designed to make me a long term profit center for the manufacturer or its agents.
Planes – 100% of all repairs done by me, when mandated in cooperation with one of several friends who have A&P or IA paperwork. Parts are generally mail ordered. The only software installed in the plane is on the GTX 335 transponder, but that’s a hands off item. I have never needed to enter any code other than VFR – it just does it’s ADS-B OUT thing, I pay no attention to it, and Garmin will never hear from me again. Binennial transponder checks are usually done by one of my A&P friends who used to work at a local repair station and has them produce the logbook paperwork (for $25, lunch or whatever he does)
Notice that in that hierarchy, the plane is the one that requires least involvement by paid help or any organization, just a bit of mostly unpaid paperwork from genuine friends. It’s no coincidence that
It’s also the one that depreciates least. Those are two things I like about it in comparison with spending the same money to buy e.g. a fancy new car of the same market value.
Silvaire wrote:
I don’t run the practical aspects of my life like that, and never will
I think you do. You said you have an iPhone, that alone says a whole lot The fact you got it through work or whatever doesn’t change that. I have never had an iPhone, I have never had any apple item whatsoever. That is a deliberate choice, as I don’t want to get sucked into that “ecosystem”. Android on the other hand, I bought the first Android phone Just because you don’t care at all about certain items, don’t mean you aren’t part of “us”. That’s the entire point in fact, all these items we have, and we couldn’t care less how they work or look, as long as they do their jobs. That’s how most people see cars, and they want it to do it’s job with an absolute minimum of interaction whatsoever of any kind. The perfect car for many is one that comes to you door in the morning, takes you to wherever you want to go all by itself, then you say goodbye to it, and you probably never will see the same car again.
A funny thing about cars though, and to your liking This morning I got an “info” mail from a car association I am a member of. They also have a magazine. One article was about the most sold car in Norway. Sold as in, sold new + sold used, over and over. That is the Volvo 240 series. It was produced from 1974 to 1993. Doing proper maintenance, it will last forever it seems, and there is a lot of them.
I think the trick is to make sure that anything you buy that could set a hook in you is of so little financial value and ongoing cost that you could throw it away – iPhones etc are an excellent example at my current financial level, although if I were a student or minimum wage employee that might not be true.
Real investments involve greater financial commitment and more scrutiny. Cars rise to that level, just, mainly because of depreciation cost that needs to be minimized at my financial level if I am to have enough money to spend on wiser investments like e.g. rental properties and planes that either now or in the future will make me free and independent – which is really the end point that I value.
A Volvo 240 woudn’t be my thing but I see your point. Way back when, around 20 years ago, I bought a collector car which I still have. It’s worth about what I paid for it, but has cost many times that much to maintain. Very poor value just to have car for occasional weekend events, the only positive is that it’s not been a huge mount of money, maybe $40K total. However in line with your Volvo example if I’d instead bought an early ‘80s Porsche 911 (which was almost the case) its value would have been several times increased and the cost of ownership over twenty years would have been much lower. One doesn’t always make the right choice but it doesn’t mean you can’t learn. Also I wouldn’t have enjoyed the 911 so much as I think they drive like a VW Beetle 
I absolutely get where @Silvaire is coming from, but most of the general popullation isnt like that. On the other end of the spectrum, there are those that just love the Tesla geeky app stuff and they have absolutely no issues with the route planning aspects of having an EV, but most of the general population isnt like that.
Most people want a car that “just starts”, is “comfortable”, “easy” to drive and will “keep going” until a little light comes on, at which point they can stop at the next convienient place that has “fuel”, spend no more than a minute or two there getting more, before continuing on their merry way. The ammount of money spent on a car will vary depending upon income and the quoted bits vary mostly dependant upon that, whether new or second hand. In my view right now an EV is a lifestyle choice purchase for well off folk who have a nice house with their own personal driveway that will have more than one car sat on it anyway.
