Malibuflyer wrote:
And yes, I’m getting emotional because I have a child which has been in the hospital for a severe disease unrelated to Covid and got infected with Covid there by a nurse that refused to vaccinate himself
I hope your daughter makes a rapid and full recovery. Really sad to hear this.
Graham wrote:
The unvaccinated do not have any power at all and aren’t exerting tyranny over anyone. No-one is freely killing anyone, nor does anyone want to as far as I can tell.
Malibuflyer does have a point, although perhaps I would have chosen a different word than “tyranny.”
Whatever you call it the effect is that unvaccinated people who get the disease are holding up health care resources such as ICU beds when that could have easily been avoided.
It would be different if unvaccinated people would waive their right to ICU beds, but I don’t think they will. Nor do I think that vaccinated people would want them to. People have a right to health care even if they are stupid.
Graham wrote:
The unvaccinated do not have any power at all and aren’t exerting tyranny over anyone.
I am not fond of the semantics as they are only going to heat an already out of control war of faith.
But I can see and I support the logic behind it. @Mailbuflyer’s example is only one of many who have experienced stuff like this. I am working in a group where several are flatly refusing to vaccinate and consequently because of a tiny minority of people all of us still have to keep to strict measures. 40 people because of 2-3. That is undue power exercised by minorities over majorities WITHOUT the possibility to take action, as many institutions do not have the authority to actually suspend or fire people who do not vaccine themselfs. Several airlines and health institutions have gone this far by now, for the very reason @Malibuflyer’s account clearly states.
On the larger scale, most European countries have a vaccination quota of vaccinable people of around 60-70%, with 80-90 needed to achieve meaningful load reduction of the health system and ICU capacity in particular. So those who refuse to get vaccinated are imposing their minority opinion onto a majority who has chosen to take action and do their share.
Tyranny? maybe a bit harsh. Egoism? Fanatism? Call it what you will but the end result is the same.
Malibuflyer wrote:
And yes, I’m getting emotional because I have a child which has been in the hospital for a severe disease unrelated to Covid and got infected with Covid there by a nurse that refused to vaccinate himself.
While you have my sympathy for your daughter’s illness, you cannot know for certain that the infection came from a specific person. It is generally accepted that approximately half of all Covid-19 infections are completely asymptomatic, and that the virus spreads here there and everywhere – mostly undetected – even among the vaccinated. This last point is contrary to what was when the vaccination campaign began.
Every positive test, at least where I am, is followed by rampant speculation about where they think they picked it up with reference to other positive cases they know about. For the most part that is all it is, speculation. The virus is pretty much everywhere and you cannot possibly know who you got it from.
No-one is attempting to rationalise ‘irrational killing of others’. You however appear to be edging towards advocating forced medical procedures, which I find tyrannical. I think that for an adult without a contraindication to choose not to get vaccinated is incredibly stupid, but I will defend to the death their right to make that stupid choice.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Whatever you call it the effect is that unvaccinated people who get the disease are holding up health care resources such as ICU beds when that could have easily been avoided.It would be different if unvaccinated people would waive their right to ICU beds, but I don’t think they will. Nor do I think that vaccinated people would want them to. People have a right to health care even if they are stupid.
In the UK a very significant proportion of healthcare spending goes on dealing with people who have (often multiple) diseases that are basically the result of lifestyle choices. Poor diet, lack of exercise, obesity, etc. I’m not spending a lot of time researching it, but I have found Public Health England figures from 2014-15 suggesting a figure of £6.1bn spent on obesity alone for those two years.
We’re all picking up the tab for people making stupid decisions not to exercise and to shove far too much food into their faces. Resources are finite, so some people aren’t getting the healthcare they need because the money is being spent (and beds, operating theatres tied up etc.) on people who were stupid. Why should stupid decisions not to get vaccinated be treated any differently?
so this thread still isn’t retired? ;-)
I have found Public Health England figures from 2014-15 suggesting a figure of £6.1bn spent on obesity alone for those two years.
It’s more like £61BN but nobody would publish such a number. The UK NHS budget is 150-200BN (depending on which bits you count) and obesity is easily 1/3 of that, totally directly. And it is a lifestyle choice in practically all cases.
so this thread still isn’t retired? ;-)
It has a life of its own, and since there are about 10^81 electrons in our observable universe it probably has some way to go 
The other one is more useful; in fact we are planning a meet-up in the Alps, during November.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Whatever you call it the effect is that unvaccinated people who get the disease are holding up health care resources such as ICU beds when that could have easily been avoided.
Either you have a welfare system, or you don’t. Not enough resources is not a reason to restrict freedom, it’s merely a reason to say to choose something that costs less or another way of financing.
Graham wrote:
Why should stupid decisions not to get vaccinated be treated any differently?
Because getting a vaccine shot is dead simple. Changing your lifestyle is not.
LeSving wrote:
Either you have a welfare system, or you don’t. Not enough resources is not a reason to restrict freedom, it’s merely a reason to say to choose something that costs less or another way of financing.
That’s more or less what I said, wasn’t it? My opinion is still that not getting vaccinated if you can, is stupid and selfish, as it puts a burden on society which is so easily avoided.
