Malibuflyer wrote:
The best way to handle this would obviously be to deny medical treatment for those Covid-patients that are voluntarily non vaccinated – but at least at this point in time there is not yet a broad support for this in the population.
While this is a knee jerk reaction, I disagree with it on grounds of it being a violation of medical ethics.
However, I think the general direction of imposing G2 restrictions will have a massive effect, as this basically means that everyone not vaccinated will find themselves pretty much excluded from public life. Sould G2 be implemented onto stuff like Public Transport or the likes, pressure to get vaccinated will become very hard to resist by most. Austria claims that after G2 was implemented, they had a surge in vaccinations of over 200k doses since then.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I disagree with it on grounds of it being a violation of medical ethics.
What is the problem with medical ethics?
It is a well established principle that people who do freely choose to forgo medical services do not receive them. And that is exactly what people who freely decide not to take the vaccination do. Non-Vaxxers always talk about freedom of choice – they need to understand that choice always comes with responsibility.
Malibuflyer wrote:
“Tyranny of (voluntarily) unvaccinated” is rapidly getting a common term in Germany that has been picked up by many commentators.
This is baffling to me. It’s a case of completely re-inventing the meaning of the word. How can you ever describe those who refuse to fall in line as tyrannical? Tyranny is, by definition, the enforcement of a requirement to fall in line. I’m struggling to think of any historical scenario where the ‘tyrants’ were those saying “just leave me alone and stop trying to compel me to do something.”
I would probably support withdrawal of public funding for Covid-19 treatment for the voluntarily unvaccinated. I believe Singapore has just done this. The problem is where to stop with the logic of “you’ve done this to yourself, so we will not pay for the treatment”? Smoking-related illnesses? Sports injuries? Obesity-related illnesses?
Graham wrote:
This is baffling to me. It’s a case of completely re-inventing the meaning of the word. How can you ever describe those who refuse to fall in line as tyrannical? Tyranny is, by definition, the enforcement of a requirement to fall in line.
I don’t know where you get your definition of Tyranny from. Merriam-Webster defines Tyranny as “cruel and unfair treatment by people with power over others”. That is pretty close to what is happening when the minority of voluntarily unvaccinated have the power to take the entire health system as a hostage.
Graham wrote:
those saying “just leave me alone and stop trying to compel me to do something.”
Unfortunately most of the Non-Vaxxers don’t say " I want to be left alone" but rather to the contrary “I have the right to be at the center of everything and freely kill people in cinemas, restaurants, schools, elderly care homes, etc.”
Malibuflyer wrote:
unvaccinated have the power to take the entire health system as a hostage.
Could you explain this?
Perhaps this is a German issue, but over here generally speaking people who want to be vaccinated have been, and those who don’t want to be haven’t. The hospitals are not overrun with unvaccinated people. Vaccinated people have protection, unvaccinated don’t (unless they’ve had it and have antibodies) but it doesn’t seem to me as if they’re all getting ill and dying off. Nor holding the health system hostage.
Off_Field wrote:
The hospitals are not overrun with unvaccinated people
This might be the difference: Here in Germany they have been during the last wave and they currently are. Treatments of other (vaccinated) patients like cancer surgeries are delayed because it can’t be guranteed that the required ICU capacity is available after surgery due to the (mainly unvaccinated) Covid patients there.
Off_Field wrote:
it doesn’t seem to me as if they’re all getting ill and dying off.
It is consensus of the vast majority of epidemiologists that the vast majority of unvaccinated people will have had Covid after the winter. The case numbers are just too high to get away w/o it.
Malibuflyer wrote:
can’t be guranteed that the required ICU capacity is available after surgery due to the (mainly unvaccinated) Covid patients there.
Ah it does seem as if Germany is different. Can you quantify the numbers. by mainly is that 75+% are unvaccinated, or higher?
Malibuflyer wrote:
It is consensus of the vast majority of epidemiologists that the vast majority of unvaccinated people will have had Covid after the winter. The case numbers are just too high to get away w/o it.
So then after the winter the problem will be sorted as all unvaccinated will have either died or have antibodies? No need to treat people differently then.
Malibuflyer wrote:
I don’t know where you get your definition of Tyranny from. Merriam-Webster defines Tyranny as “cruel and unfair treatment by people with power over others”. That is pretty close to what is happening when the minority of voluntarily unvaccinated have the power to take the entire health system as a hostage.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Unfortunately most of the Non-Vaxxers don’t say " I want to be left alone" but rather to the contrary “I have the right to be at the center of everything and freely kill people in cinemas, restaurants, schools, elderly care homes, etc.”
Your reasoning here is so poor that it’s impossible to debate with you. Cruel and unfair treatment by people with power over others = the state forcing, or de facto forcing, people to undergo medical procedures against their will.
The unvaccinated do not have any power at all and aren’t exerting tyranny over anyone. No-one is freely killing anyone, nor does anyone want to as far as I can tell. There’s a moderately unpleasant respiratory infection doing the rounds and we’re going to have to live with it for the foreseeable. You are going to get it, sooner or later, same as everyone else, and unvaccinated people have nothing to do with that, nor do they have any basic obligation to undergo medical procedures themselves in order to try and protect you.
It is freely circulating among the vaccinated – 3 cases among friends of mine in my village last week. Your energies would be better spent taking personal responsibility and reducing your own personal risk, rather than shouting at imaginary bogeymen and demanding they be dealt with.
I’m sure we’re all aware of how blaming some bogeyman and the road to tyranny go hand-in-hand in European history.
Graham wrote:
Your energies would be better spent taking personal responsibility and reducing your own personal risk, rather than shouting at imaginary bogeymen and demanding they be dealt with.
Sorry, that is utter and complete Bullshit!
And yes, I’m getting emotional because I have a child which has been in the hospital for a severe disease unrelated to Covid and got infected with Covid there by a nurse that refused to vaccinate himself. Ma daughter is double vaccinated and no, she is not 75+ years old. What should she have done to “take more personal responsibility” or “reduce her own risk”.
It is not an “imaginary bogeyman” at all but as specific person – who is part of the group of voluntary unvaccinated – who took the decision for my child to risk her life for completely irrational reasons! Don’t tell me about “taking personal responsibility” or “reducing own risks” – those are all the excuses used by selfish people who want to rationalize their irrational killing of others!
@ Malibuflyer that is a salutary story. I hope your daughter gets well soon and I trust the nurse will be made aware of the cosequences of his inactions.
