Peter wrote:
There are different routes to “trust”.
And the other problem is that people don’t understand how immunization and protection of community works.
Peter wrote:
There are different routes to “trust”.This vaccine has been given to a few tens of k of people and with no significant problems. To anyone with a scientific/engineering education, that is a strong evidence of it being safe. Even more so to anyone with a technology/manufacturing background Then throw in the history of vaccines which shows any side effects manifesting themselves pretty quickly.
The Boeing issue is not comparable. It remains possible – actually highly probable, looking at how many were sold – that had the plane been sold only to 1st World airlines, none would have been crashed, and perhaps the issue would have been dealt with by some AD, after reports of dodgy behaviour by e.g. Ryanair. Airbus had similar issues over the years but got away with it which is why they have not been publicly gloating about Boeing’s cockup. It is similarly a common thing in manufacturing that you can sell a given defective product to a customer base which for various reasons – unknown to you – has a specific uniformity in the application and the defect never surfaces, and then you sell it into a different application and everybody complains. The vaccine safety study would have avoided these pitfalls if it was done properly, which I am very sure it was.
I would not have been the first in line to have any vaccine, but that is why the safety studies are done.
You are right, but decisions such as this arent always rational or scientific, and this was the point I was making. As to Boeing, our protocols for testing that things are safe hopefully improve all the time, and undoubtedly many would say things are as safe as safe can be. However, there is alwas the but. Medical history is just as much littered with disasters, be it the scandels over contaminated blood, to pirons entering the food chain, to thalidomide. We learn from each, but I suspect never say never. I think the key word in your reply Peter is “should” – almost always if it is capable of going wrong, this is where it does.
All that said I am totally with you, except I lined up for the trials, and put my name forward, so I have as much confidence in the process as i guess it is possible to have.
Emir – and I think you are absolutely right. I find many people have an innate distrust of anything new. The messenger RNA has been billed as just that, and to the extent some have got to grips this is the first time this type of vaccine has been used, it increases their scepticism. I also find it interesting that there are many drugs that we really dont understand exactly how they work – we know they do, but we dont entirely understand the mechanism. It seems to me the reality is we understand even less about how our immune system actually works, and this is from someone who would consider themselves a scientist of sorts. In most other disciples we would be sceptical of using systems about which we had little knowledge of how they work. It is like giving a pilot an autopilot and telling them not to worry about how the autopilot interacts with the flying controls – it just does. Come to think about it how does it do that, and why does it do that. 
Emir wrote:
Vaccination is part of collective fight against the desease
Classic vaccines, yes, but not vaccines against influenza and now covid. For one, they aren’t 100%, only 60-90, 40-50 regarding influenza. Having a vaccine is no assurance you cannot get covid, or cannot transmit the disease to others. Second, the classic diseases mostly affected children, and we all (at least here) are vaccinated when we are babies. What will happen IMO, is business as usual regarding vaccination. I always have my vaccination card ready in case I have to go to some odd country where I cannot enter without a vaccination card and the correct vaccines. Corona vaccine will probably be a part of this. I don’t think every country in Europe will do this, but it will rather on a Schengen level for instance, if at all. Entering from a non Schengen country cannot be done without a vaccine or a positive confirmation of having had covid. I don’t think there will be any inter-Schengen control.
Things will sort themselves out by itself when the vaccine is out. Vaccinate everybody in the risk group, and the problem is solved. The death rate will have fallen by 90+ % Then there will be more than enough people eventually taking the vaccine, making the problem completely irrelevant as a death factor of any magnitude. But, in contrast to other diseases that we have exterminated for all practical purposes, covid will be with us for ever. But I mean, let’s look at this without all this drama. There is no need for the drama and quasi moralism. It’s over now. The vaccines is disarming the disease as we speak. Let’s go flying instead 
LeSving wrote:
Vaccinate everybody in the risk group, and the problem is solved
The entire population is in the risk group – while severe acute episodes are obviously much more prevalent with elderly, it currently doesn’t look like there is a very strong age bias for “long Covid” (i.e. the form of long term symptoms like pain, reduced energy, etc.).
5% of the population disabled with long Covid is from an economic and society point of view actually much worse than .5% or so of the population dying.
Therefore I fully agree with your point: everybody in the risk group which is the entire population needs to get vaccinated…
Malibuflyer wrote:
5% of the population disabled with long Covid is from an economic and society point of view actually much worse than .5% or so of the population dying.
Exactly.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Therefore I fully agree with your point: everybody in the risk group which is the entire population needs to get vaccinated…
That is it. And if 40% of the population will refuse then the current situation will continue for the forseeable future.
Germany is going into hard(er) lockdown from Wednesday: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/13/germany-to-close-shops-and-schools-in-tightened-covid-lockdown
5% of the population disabled with long Covid is from an economic and society point of view actually much worse than .5% or so of the population dying.
IT all depends on the definition of the risk group. Age is not the only factor, and vaccinating the entire population because 5 out of 100 persons might develop “long covid”, which no one knows nothing about, seems very excessive to me.
Take a vaccine, or the economy will collapse ? Please
LeSving wrote:
Take a vaccine, or the economy will collapse ? Please
I think it will be more like “take a vaccine to continue participating in the economy”
Germany is going into hard(er) lockdown from Wednesday
Very sad trend in Germany… I wonder why? What is the social reason for this? Most would say that Germany is not exactly a “rebellious / demanding their civil rights” population.
