Malibuflyer wrote:
If you look at European countries, there is a very clear correlation between population density and and spread of disease.
More than enough exceptions in there that needs explanation of why the “correlation” is not followed better. Japan, Korea, the US, Canada and so on. Norway vs Sweden for instance, or UK vs Germany. Besides, everything appear correlated when put into a log-log graph. There is also cause and effect. Why on earth should it be harder to keep 1 m distance in London than in Oslo ? If you take a look at the geography in Norway, you will find that only a few percent of the area is habited. The rest is mountains. The real effective population density is just as much here as other places.
Malibuflyer wrote:
How many cross border commuters do you have in Norways entering/exiting the country every day? How many of these work in “critical areas” like e.g. as hospital staff?
Travels like that has been going on through the pandemic, mostly to/from Sweden (except in the very beginning when each head of the county medical administration ruled as kings and queens 
) Restrictions have only been put on recreational travel, forcing quarantines when entering. Very bad for TUI and similar travelling businesses. Very good for outdoor gear retailers, as they have increased sales by 200% typically, sometimes more
Malibuflyer wrote:
If you “chose” to close German borders with France, a significant part of the economy in SW-Germany is simply shut down – including critical infrastructure.
Why do you need to close down critical infrastructure, whatever that may be? The thing is you didn’t close it for the general public because:
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Freedom stops where it impairs the freedom of others. Then it just becomes egoism.
That is the way an ant would see it. A more human view is that everything you do affects somebody or something. Freedom is being able to work out conflicts and interfaces without continuous imposition of authority, only in the most severe cases, and it is a better way of life.
It looks like the US may open up travel from Europe soon, I think the objective must be to get it done before the change of presidential administration, and without any additional Federal law being created. I hope it happens, there has been no point in preventing travel from Europe since the point in time when CV had spread from Europe and became equally established in the US.
Two people I’ve met in my lifetime have so far caught CV, one airport hangar neighbor and a woman who works in the office at a friends business. Both have recovered without ongoing issues. Given that individual statistic on the possible effect of others on me, I think I’ll likely be successful in managing my CV risk going forward. I hope you are too.
Silvaire wrote:
Given that individual statistic on the possible effect of others on me, I think I’ll likely be successful in managing my CV risk going forward. I hope you are too.
It is totally out of my hands as long as I am forced to interact with others on a regular basis and my child has to go to school where for the small ones no masks are worn. We are lucky so far that our village has very few documented cases and up to now none of them affect the school Lea is in. But this can change tomorrow.
Opening travel would be insane. Europe is the cesspit of Covid right now.
Figures here are on the up again. Now they finally are thinking of a much stricter shutdown… this should have been done in October or November. Right now, Covid kills about 1000 people a week, this in a population which is smaller than an average american metro area.
Silvaire wrote:
Freedom is being able to work out conflicts and interfaces without continuous imposition of authority, only in the most severe cases, and it is a better way of life.
Sometimes even the two of us fully agree!
Working out conflicts, however, implies the will of all participants in a society to think and act beyond own interests. Therefore in the Covid context the core question for everyone should not be if they are able to “manage the own risk” (and feel sorry for those parts of the population that can’t because they can’t avoid dealing with infected). The core question for everyone should be if I contribute enough myself to manage the entire risk of the society I live in – without being forced by a government.
Wearing masks in public is a great example: It is something one does not do for oneself but purely for society. And it is as little of a burden for the individual as wearing underwear.
Malibuflyer wrote:
And it is as little of a burden for the individual as wearing underwear.
That depends on the color 
(of the underwear)
The head of the medical administration in Trondheim also turned to the dark forces today. Masks are to be worn inside at all public places. Hallelujah.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
No. What I suggest is that anyone who decides not to be vaccined has to face the consequence of their actions. that means, they will need to continue the measures now in force (masks, social distancing, curfew) and they will not have privileges such as the right to travel. Also, they should not be allowed back into offices and spaces where they can infect others.
The terrorists have truly won…
" If they aren’t, then there are some arguments for vaccinating the most mobile people in the population first,"
A trucker could drive Madrid to Inverness and back with very few contacts, sleeping in cab.
Shop workers, especially those in small shops, should also be a priority, before the elderly.
I think smallpox vaccination was compulsory for babies in the UK at one time. Maybe diphtheria also?
My high risk activity today was my annual eye check. Mask lowered as the machines misted up. The guy doing the check should be a vaccine priority.
“The terrorists have truly won”
If you refused to be x-rayed for TB, and didn’t have a blood test, you were banned from may situations – attending university, teaching, and many other employments 60 years ago in the UK
LFHNflightstudent wrote:
The terrorists have truly won…
Yes – this damn bastards do not let me participate in the champions league finals – not sure if it’s because my overweight, my inability to run 100m faster than 14 sec or that I don’t particularly like football – but I’m pretty sure that is a completely unjustified act of punishment and revenge by those forces in charge!
Everyone should be allowed to participate at the Olympic Games (needless to mention: For free including transportation and accommodation) independent from if they trained or not. Everyone should be allowed to fly a plane independent from if they are blind or not – it’s an unjustified act of terror from these seeing elites to ban people who can’t see or hear from flying. Every child should be allowed to kindergarten, independent from if they can infect the other Childs with a deadly virus or not.
Or you can do it the German “terrorist” way: If you are not fast enough, you are not qualified for word cup/olympics, if you are not medically fit you are not allowed to fly and if you are not vaccinated against measels (another deadly disease where some dummies think it’s actually a good thing for children to “experience” it) you are not qualified for Kindergarten.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Do I want to lead a normal life again? So I need to make sure that I am not spreading this virus anymore. That is all that is to it.
Following that logic no one in continental Europe + Sweden + USA would be allowed to travel again – ever. The reason: complete failure of preventing the spread of the virus, both domestic and international.
I really think this discussion can hugely benefit from less extremist thinking and strawman arguments and more rational, evidence-based debate. I don’t mean particularly here on EuroGA, where this topic has so far been talked about very maturely, but in the general public discussion about Covid-19.
The facts on the ground are these: Yesterday I had to bring am intubated/ventilated patient, who had just undergone a neurosurgical procedure due to a brain haemorrhage, to the cardiology ICU because the neurosurgical ICU is half-filled with Covid-19 patients (in addition to their usual neurosurgical patients), thus there was no other free bed. Of course, not a dramatic thing, the cardiologist are also able to perform intensive care, but it is nevertheless just one example that we are stretching our medical resources to the limit. And that is in a country which has plenty of these resources in comparison and – despite the 2nd wave hitting quite hard at the moment – is still comparably well off in this pandemic.
Yet, not every “lockdown” measure really helps, there must be room for debate. For example, I am inclined to think that if people meet in restaurants, with adequate hygiene measures in place (hand disinfection, ventilation, lots of space between tables, wearing masks when not eating) this might be safer than unregulated meetings in private, where people probably don’t care about masks and distance because nobody watches them. Just one example up for debate.
I am all for strict lockdown measures, as long as they are effective.
