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Alternate and diversion aerodrome - do you ask for PPR/PNR before getting airborne?

Posts moved to existing thread.

I have no idea what that French legal website says that’s applicable to this discussion, but noncompliance PNR/PPR is an issue regardless of whether you landed because you had to, or because you felt like it.

As I wrote earlier, I once got away with it at Colmar but prob99 only because I had a French speaker with me.

If you can get permission then there is no issue, of course.

This is a really nasty problem in GA.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I am not understanding this. You don’t need to PN or PPR at Colmar unless you are coming from a country outside the Schengen area.
In the case of the need to use it as an alternate it will be on your flight plan and if you are using your alternate it is because there is a problem at your destination airport which makes it impossible to land there, so there should be no problem to land at Colmar.
In the case of an emergency, you land wherever it is safe to do so,
There are no laws in France that will punish you for either of these actions.
But that is providing you are not trying to game the system.
As Ibra pointed out, landing at Colmar as an alternate or in case of emergency, you have choices if you don’t want to hang around for 24hours for a customs officer to turn up.
But in a genuine emergency I think you might find the douane quite sympathetic and often very helpful but might simply advise the course of action that Ibra posted.
I wonder how many pilots travelling to or from the UK actually use Colmar as an entry/exit airport and how many more would go there if there was no 24 hr PN required.

Last Edited by gallois at 29 Mar 11:05
France

This is a really nasty problem in GA

Indeed it’s a hassle, although manageable like any legal s***t pilots can find themselves muddling through?

A breach of ANO for aviation (SBC for immigration, or…) can put black mark on someone criminal records, unlike the joy of working for airliners where whole departments are covering your back, I can imagine someone in a regulated job losing their career because they nipped CTA without talking to ATC (landed in Colmar without PN, or…) while on weekend private flight

You cover your bases and hope for the best?

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Mar 11:12
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

There is a NOTAM at Friedrichshafen EDNY that requires PPR 3hr in advance for diversions and emergencies (!!!!!! ?)

I can just picture someone requesting PPR 3 hours before a flight “due to a planned emergency”.

LSZK, Switzerland

On a side note when asking the alternates for PNR/PPR, the people who manage that landing permission actually just don’t get it, it’s too complex and conceptual for their simple binary minds !!

I get a reply “why asking for PPR if not landing? OK, can you call us back to cancel your request after you have landed at your original destination?”

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Mar 11:38
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

chflyer wrote:

There is a NOTAM at Friedrichshafen EDNY that requires PPR 3hr in advance for diversions and emergencies (!!!!!! ?)

Not now. They must have realised quickly that it doesn’t make sense.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

unless you are coming from a country outside the Schengen area.

Of course – outside schengen or outside eu.

But that is providing you are not trying to game the system.

But… who decides? The 9mm-carrying police

A key factor seems to be whether the pilot can speak the local language.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Some years ago whilst flying to Norwich the weather coming off the North Sea meant we probably wouldn’t reach Norwich. I suggested to my student that we divert to Lakenheath and wait for the weather to improve. With a strong northerly we were blown South and by the time the Pentagon had gived permission we were virtually on final for Mildenhall. At that point I opted to divert to Mildenhall and were told by Lakenheath to contact Mildenhall Tower. I called final to land and was told we could do circuits but could not land. At that point I said Madam we are Landing. The response was is this an emergency to which we replied Yes. On arrival we were met by a multitude of vehicles and about 5 bird colonels as the USAF only seem to have one level of Emergency.

Regarding PPR, you do not have a God given right to pitch up at private aerodromes whenever you think fit so PPR is the only way to get permission, the alternative is not to be allowed to go there at all. There are plenty of airfields in Northern Canada like that.

Any unscheduled emergency event that requires a diversion would not need PPR but if you are regularly nominating an airfield for administrative type diversions then it should be notified and agreed that you can use it. I recall flying across the Atlantic to Navy Mayport with a PPR and then having to divert to Jacksonville because they did not recognise the PPR. From top of descent to landing the destination changed 5 times eventually landing at Mayport.

Last Edited by Tumbleweed at 29 Mar 16:32

The response was is this an emergency to which we replied Yes

Maybe the question on Colmar was about non-emergency diversion cases? not necessarily MayDay/PanPan on 7700/7600, just feeling you may need more fuel while you have still 3h endurance but high altitude winds have picked up and you don’t want to find that out in middle of channel, so prefer to fill up the tanks in Colmar without having to fill up paperwork that goes with declaring 7700 emergency? in France, if you do so you only have to file an MOR and send BGTA your licence, medical, aircraft docs, planning packs…

Once you say 7700, the whole sky and ground is yours and PPR goes to the bin

What about non-emergency diversion to takeoff & en-route alternates? (nothing associated with them in ATC FPL but PIC may have to nominate them in his mind)

Last Edited by Ibra at 29 Mar 17:36
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Not exactly.

You can divert anywhere, mayday or no mayday, totally in breach of customs/immigration, and ATC will rarely realise let alone care. It is extremely rare to be denied a landing clearance (outside of some places like Greece or Italy ). The question is what happens post-landing.

My Colmar example was IIRC a flight from Croatia (EU, non schengen) so definitely in breach of immigration 24hr PN. Like I said, A French speaking passenger sorted it out with the police. A nice chap at the airport suggested we fill up and fly back out and nobody will know, but I didn’t want to end up on an arrest warrant The onward flight was to the UK so also in breach of a 24hr PN. The police could have detained us (what else can you do with somebody airside; you can’t just leave them there) for 24hrs, but they didn’t even want to turn up.

With a mayday, it would have been exactly the same. You enter France from a non schengen country, at a 24hr PN airport.

I think the situation is as Bosco and Tumbleweed say.

You have to look at the wind forecast, etc, and if there is a possibility of having to stop for fuel, email them with the PN request. Most of the time you won’t get a reply but at least you are covered. CC yourself on the email. I have done this a number of times e.g. arranged Lille LFQQ for a fuel stop here although that’s not a great example because LFQQ has C+I full time. Very few airports in N or NE France are thus usable.

It is a big problem in GA. You have to be sure that a cross-border flight can be completed as planned, unless within Schengen/EU as applicable.

This is also relevant, and shows some ways to game the system which you can be pretty sure will not bite you.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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