Alternate and diversion aerodrome - do you ask for PPR/PNR before getting airborne?

alioth wrote:

Nothing in that AIP text precludes an airport operator from giving blanket permission to any arriving aircraft. There is no regulation stating that an airfield licensed or otherwise must give permission for each individual movement on a case-by-case basis by telephone, it’s just many airfields have decided independently that they require this, despite in many instances the whole idea being a bit silly.

I think it is used as a replacement for a proper ATC – if you have A/G or AFIS, they cannot tell you what to do and direct you in any way, so the PPR could be used to allow or prohibit an arrival to an airfield and prescribe the flight procedures for those airfields.

Malibuflyer wrote:

Define “Infrastructure”.

In the case of airports, I’d compare them to roads and motorways or other infrastructure available to the public without any significant restrictions.

Railways are different by definition. They were never ever planned or built with individual traffic in mind. Individual traffic does not exist on railways.

Airports, particularly airfields, on the other hand are primarily there to handle any form of traffic.

Malibuflyer wrote:

If you make it to Colmar, you very likely also would make it to Strasbourg or to Basel. Both are international airports where you can land anytime w/o prior notice. Yes, they are a bit more expensive, but not a safety risk. Just because there are pilots who think “I’m willing to take any risk if I can safe a few bucks” it doesn’t mean that any fee is a safety risk…

What I am talking about is, that nobody should be scared away either financially or in fear of retribution to land at any available airfield or airport, particularly if there is a good reason for it.

There are a lot of people who are more afraid of the hassle and financial consequences of landing at a “forbidden” airfield and subsequently loose their lifes. Yes, you can argue that they should not be flying, but well, they are. And looking how things work elsewhere, when I read stuff like people being fined or what not for filing IFR in the air for lack of flight preparation or landing 3 minutes after self imposed closing times or a slot time, then I get angry.

No citizen with their cars would accept the daily hassle and harassment that we are exposed to for no good reason. So why do pilots have the stockholm syndrome and think it is all ok? Anyone who has flown in the US knows that it can be different.

Why do you say things are different in the USA?
Safety is the priority in France and I had assumed it was the same in other European countries. If you call “Mayday Mayday Mayday or Panne Panne Panne” you will get priority treatment and I doubt very much that there will be fines or any other penalties. You probably won’t even pay the landing fee.🙂
You will not get fined for filing IFR in the air, but just as in the USA if going from one FIR to another you need to be prepared for a delay whilst ATS sorts out traffic arrangements downstream. Slot times are a different matter. Do you think trains run without slot times? You file a route, others have already filed before you and separation cannot be maintained. What gives you the right to jump the queue just because you are GA?
And arriving after closing time. Well that is the arrangements at a particular airport. Don’t you think people have a right to go home at the end of their shift?
One should not really conflate emergencies with wanting to fly where you want to when you want to without any prior arrangement.
Yet often we can do just that🙂 In reality there are very few rules that mean we can’t have a get around if we change our minds.🙂

There is no doubt you can land. IME, in some places you will be refused a landing clearance if not done PNR/PPR, but a mayday will work.

It is what happens afterwards that is the question, especially if you want to fly straight back out.

These questions were a whole lot of fun during the lockdowns

Straight back out to where. And of course we are talking of the problem which caused you to land outside of your original destination has been solved.
From Colmar for instance if you are flying to another airfield in France or even to another Schengen country and perhaps even to another EU country, there should be no problem.
If on the other hand you want to fly back out to the UK for instance, you might be considered as not having cleared C+I unless you have remained airside and have cleared C+I already, before your emergency landing.
To clear C+I at Colmar needs you to give 24 hours prior notice. That leaves you with 3 choices.
1) Wait 24hours
2) Talk to the douaniers and see if it’s ok with them to fly straight back UK on this one off occasion.
3) Do as Ibra has suggested give 2hour PN to somewhere like Le Touquet and fly there to clear C+I.
A Brit guy visited some Brit neighbours here a couple of weeks ago and forgot to send details to the douaniers at his chosen PofE. He wanted to take off that afternoon, about 6 to 7 hours before his ETA at the Pof E. He spoke with the president of the club here who put him on to me because the President does not speak English and the Brit did not speak French.
I rang customs at his Pof E and asked if anything could be done. The lady there simply said no problem, just email his details now, but he may have to wait for us if he arrives when we are dealing with one of the scheduled aircraft. I wont mention the name of the name of the PofE, just in case the very helpful douanier would get into trouble. She added it will give me a chance to practice my English😄

gallois wrote:

Why do you say things are different in the USA?

Because there are loads and loads of airports, most of them IFR, almost none of them have the nonsense of PPR or similar b.s. we have to put up with here. You fly along, you see a nice airport, you land, get fuel, go on.

In way too many cases this doesn’t work here due to the control freakism lots of people display.

And on some airports, where you are either outpriced or unwanted for other reasons, you can land all right on emergency or urgency (does a very urgent toilet break qualify?) but you get the wrath of the beancounters or whatever violations of slots, customs, ppr or who ever else regardless.

And if you really go PAN or Mayday and end up at an airport which will sweeten the experience with a $$$$ bill thereafter as they show NO compassion for any predicament you may have been in and you tell it around, one of your friends might well decide it’s a bad idea to land there and fly past it for a cheaper field, only to get his engine stopped out of gliding range and wreck the airplane and possibly all on board out of fear of a huge bill and reprecussions.

Would that happen in the US? Hardly. Guy I knew had an emergency close to JFK and had to land there, 31L, C172. WX turned bad, he had hardly and vis and decided better to be on the ground. They went out of their way to help including waiving fees.

Wanna try that at Gatwick or Frankfurt? Or on some Greek island unused airport outside hours?

That is what I am talking about when I mean things are different in the US.

gallois wrote:

You will not get fined for filing IFR in the air

Tell that to those who did get investigated in Germany. There was a big article about it in PnF about someone who ran afoul of weather, filed IFR and got nicked for lack of flight preparation.

gallois wrote:

And arriving after closing time. Well that is the arrangements at a particular airport. Don’t you think people have a right to go home at the end of their shift?

Absolutely they do. But why close an airport just because nobody is there? PCL anyone? How many people do you need to keep a road open? So why do you need anyone present at an airport? I think in France there are (or at least were) places like this, 24/7/365 with PCL. Not in Germany nor in most other places. And what about all those Greek island airports which are available 2 hours per day even with some jobsworth sitting at the tower all day? If that is not a criminal waste of infrastructure I don’t know what is.

gallois wrote:

One should not really conflate emergencies with wanting to fly where you want to when you want to without any prior arrangement.

Absolutely. Yet there are many reasons why people fly past suitable but hassle prone airfields and outpricing airports when everything else tells them to land. And that, in my book, is a safety relevant thing. BTW, I am not alone saying that. I brought it up at a EASA roadmap meeting and the guy in charge there fully agreed. Only that EASA has no jurisdiction over these things. Which, imho is wrong exactly because of what we are discussing.

(And btw: While CAA’s and through them EASA actually CAN stop airports from outpricing landing fees they apparently are powerless to stop handling abuse and parking restrictions. So that is where the outpricers go. I just learnt I will be outpriced due to parking charges at ZRH from 2024. Hopefully someone stops this but it looks like GA will be out unless you wanna pay some 200 Euros parking per day for a 1200 kg airplane. )

I will admit to only rarely facing any of the challenges you list.
Here in VFR I can just get in a plane ( Notams allowing) fly where I want to fly in France. No PPR unless there is a chance of no parking space or waterlogged runways. Generally, I pay little or no landing fees, no handling fees. But then for the most part I don’t attempt to go to Bordeaux Mérignac, Nice, Charles de Gaulles.
Most of the airfields I visit are open with or without ATS from half an hour before sunrise to half an hour after sunset.
For night flying I do have to pay a higher landing fee for the PCL. Usually an average of €22.
But still plenty of places open and only occasionally PPR in order to make sure the PCL switches are left on when ATS leaves. But that is not at all airports.
For IFR I simply file a FPL and fly. Much quicker and easier now Peter put me on to Autorouter.
I fly IFR to go to a particular chosen destination.
I very rarely need to fly an in flight IFR FPL, but there is nothing stopping me doing so and no penalties. It is allowable under ICAO and EASA regulations. If I run into bad weather I can really on help from ATS to get me somewhere I can land safely. I know of no French pilot whose mind would be crossed for a moment, penalties, handling, landing fees or anything else. We are going to land where it is safe to do so. But I agree it would have to be an extreme circumstance to have to land at Charles de Gaulle although there have been a couple of emergency landings at Orly that I know of and quite a few at Nice. Although the last one I heard of at Nice was greeted with ATS asking if they could manage to reach Cannes instead. But when the answer was negative, they were assisted to land at Nice, a mechanic familiar with Robins was sent, the aircraft fixed and flown off the following day. As far as I know, not a centime was paid in fees, penalties, handling, or parking.
We need to bear in mind that airports in France are run as businesses/infrastructure or for the benefit of sports and leisure. Whichever it is there will be a budget which one needs to stick to. If there is little or no demand for a particular type of flying or a certain type of aircraft is too much trouble unless they pay a realistic price, then that is what they will do.
Some pilots at LFFK wanted an RNP approach. They raised the funds, had it designed and with help we now have an RNP approach, although our compromise was we lost a certain amount of parking, we have to raise about €6000 per annum to maintain it and the approach is restricted to either based aircraft or PPR via the Maire.
There are many things in the USA that I would like to see in Europe and some of them will be in the future. I would love to see the UK GAR system adopted throughout Europe.But I am nowhere near as down about flying in Europe as Mooney is. I avoid airports that want PPR or overcharge or whatever. But then I fly for fun not as a means of transport. The only time it crossed my mind that I might like a career as an airline pilot, I was 14.years old and listening to a careers adviser. The thought was quickly overridden by other careers which excited me more.