@Emir I was not trying to give a lesson just trying to make a point that the inbound course to the hold and to the racetrack are different at Dole and they are not on top of each other as in say Ibiza.
@johnh In this part of France we call a chicane a chicane and when you drive it you faire chicaner.
What part of France is madam Johnh from?
If itâs not in EASA we tend to follow ICAO in France unless we request a difference.
@gallois I mean a narrrowing in the normal road, not on a⊠racetrack (but not a hippodrome!). Just outside my domaine (in Nice) there is such a thing, with signs either side saying âĂ©cluseâ. What they say elsewhere in the country I have no idea, maybe itâs like pain au chocolat and chocolatine (the subject of many an argument â they are the same thing, but in SW France they say chocolatine).
We have a place called the Chicane at the top of the road..itâs called the Chicane because some years ago it was actually a chicane in the road.
Yes, there are many things pronounced, termed, or whatever which are different in different parts of France.
For instance in your area often people pronounce âdemainâ and âmatinâ as âdemeenâ and âmateenâ whereas other parts of France say âdemanâ and âmat anâ.
Youâve also still got people who speak old French and many who speak Patois. The problem is that there were originally, nearly 80languages in France. SW France spoke a language called âOcâ back in the middle ages. Hence the region, now called Languedoc.
I donât know from what language the PACA area derived.
UdoR wrote:
Racetrack hold is an official term.
If itâs official, it must have a definition. Do you have a reference? Iâve never heard it before this discussion.
johnh wrote:
Racetrack is standard aviation phraseology in English.No it isnât. Itâs a word that is used on some relatively obscure ICAO document that probably 98% of pilots have never even heard of, much less read, which happens to be written in English. In the English speaking aviation world (i.e. everywhere except France and Russia) it isnât used.
Sorry, but it is a standard term in aviation English. For starters, how do you talk about racetrack initial approach procedures without mentioning the word âracetrackâ? Every IR textbook must use it. It certainly is used in the Approach Procedures chapter of the (English!) Oxford Aviation Academyâs ATPL Air Law textbook. It is in Jeppesenâs glossary etc.
Period.
Thatâs really not an argument.
I donât know from what language the PACA area derived.
PACA is pretty big. Here in Nice they spoke Nissard, which owed more to Italian than to Provencal. But I donât think the people who design the roads use the local languages (though signs are now in Provencal, which is a bit silly since nobody actually speaks it). Provencal is like a blend between French and Catalan. My wifeâs grandmother grew up speaking the Ariege patois, which is more like Catalan than French.
Languedoc actually comes from the pronunciation of the word for âyesâ: oel in the North, oc in the south. Oui comes from a relatively modern Parisian affectation. Same in English: 5 centuries ago people said ar in the south and aye in the north â and indeed they still do, to some extent. Yes is a contraction of âar tâisâ.
My wife comes from the Toulouse area, where they speak normal French, albeit with a pretty strong accent (though my wife doesnât have it). I have just recently figured out how to pronounce the ârâ sound like someone from the countryside around Toulouse. It is far from obvious.
You really shouldnât get me started on languages.
Languedoc comes from langue dâoc.
Language of Oc. It was the language spoken by Eleanor of Aquitaine when she married the Prince of France who became King by the time they got to Poitiers.
She spoke Oc he spoke a sort of French come Latin as we know it today. I always wondered how they communicated.
But all this now is way off topic so perhaps we should stop.
@Airborne_again What is about the ICAO doc 8168 as I cited here in post #66 or in the Jeppesen phraseology as cited in post #65?
I know both are not legally binding, but weâre talking about language usage here. To me it tells a lesson that you find the term âracetrack holdâ in books. So it sounds reasonable that it exists and is used at least in parts of the world.
I didnât mean to say that it has to be used, just saying that there is evidence that it is used.
One more bit of thread drift Iâm afraid.
Languedoc comes from langue dâoc.
True. And langue dâoc comes from the word for âyesâ, see Wikipedia quote:
Langue dâoĂŻl (in the singular), OĂŻl dialects and OĂŻl languages (in the plural) designate the ancient northern Gallo-Romance languages as well as their modern-day descendants. They share many linguistic features, a prominent one being the word oĂŻl for yes. (Oc was and still is the southern word for yes, hence the langue dâoc or Occitan languages). The most widely spoken modern OĂŻl language is French (oĂŻl was pronounced [o.il] or [o.i], which has become [wi], in modern French oui).7