What is a "racetrack to ILS"? LFAT ILS13 (and is OKPEM a hold or not?)

@johnh I find this thread quite interesting, besides that it is also amusing 😉

You won’t find stuff like this in any book.

@Emir I was not trying to give a lesson just trying to make a point that the inbound course to the hold and to the racetrack are different at Dole and they are not on top of each other as in say Ibiza.
@johnh In this part of France we call a chicane a chicane and when you drive it you faire chicaner.
What part of France is madam Johnh from?

If it’s not in EASA we tend to follow ICAO in France unless we request a difference.

@gallois I mean a narrrowing in the normal road, not on a… racetrack (but not a hippodrome!). Just outside my domaine (in Nice) there is such a thing, with signs either side saying “écluse”. What they say elsewhere in the country I have no idea, maybe it’s like pain au chocolat and chocolatine (the subject of many an argument – they are the same thing, but in SW France they say chocolatine).

We have a place called the Chicane at the top of the road..it’s called the Chicane because some years ago it was actually a chicane in the road.
Yes, there are many things pronounced, termed, or whatever which are different in different parts of France.
For instance in your area often people pronounce “demain” and “matin” as “demeen” and “mateen” whereas other parts of France say “deman” and “mat an”.
You’ve also still got people who speak old French and many who speak Patois. The problem is that there were originally, nearly 80languages in France. SW France spoke a language called “Oc” back in the middle ages. Hence the region, now called Languedoc.
I don’t know from what language the PACA area derived.

UdoR wrote:

Racetrack hold is an official term.

If it’s official, it must have a definition. Do you have a reference? I’ve never heard it before this discussion.

johnh wrote:

Racetrack is standard aviation phraseology in English.

No it isn’t. It’s a word that is used on some relatively obscure ICAO document that probably 98% of pilots have never even heard of, much less read, which happens to be written in English. In the English speaking aviation world (i.e. everywhere except France and Russia) it isn’t used.

Sorry, but it is a standard term in aviation English. For starters, how do you talk about racetrack initial approach procedures without mentioning the word “racetrack”? Every IR textbook must use it. It certainly is used in the Approach Procedures chapter of the (English!) Oxford Aviation Academy’s ATPL Air Law textbook. It is in Jeppesen’s glossary etc.

Period.

That’s really not an argument.

I don’t know from what language the PACA area derived.

PACA is pretty big. Here in Nice they spoke Nissard, which owed more to Italian than to Provencal. But I don’t think the people who design the roads use the local languages (though signs are now in Provencal, which is a bit silly since nobody actually speaks it). Provencal is like a blend between French and Catalan. My wife’s grandmother grew up speaking the Ariege patois, which is more like Catalan than French.

Languedoc actually comes from the pronunciation of the word for “yes”: oel in the North, oc in the south. Oui comes from a relatively modern Parisian affectation. Same in English: 5 centuries ago people said ar in the south and aye in the north – and indeed they still do, to some extent. Yes is a contraction of “ar t’is”.

My wife comes from the Toulouse area, where they speak normal French, albeit with a pretty strong accent (though my wife doesn’t have it). I have just recently figured out how to pronounce the “r” sound like someone from the countryside around Toulouse. It is far from obvious.

You really shouldn’t get me started on languages.

Languedoc comes from langue d’oc.
Language of Oc. It was the language spoken by Eleanor of Aquitaine when she married the Prince of France who became King by the time they got to Poitiers.
She spoke Oc he spoke a sort of French come Latin as we know it today. I always wondered how they communicated.
But all this now is way off topic so perhaps we should stop.

@Airborne_again What is about the ICAO doc 8168 as I cited here in post #66 or in the Jeppesen phraseology as cited in post #65?

I know both are not legally binding, but we’re talking about language usage here. To me it tells a lesson that you find the term “racetrack hold” in books. So it sounds reasonable that it exists and is used at least in parts of the world.

I didn’t mean to say that it has to be used, just saying that there is evidence that it is used.

One more bit of thread drift I’m afraid.

Languedoc comes from langue d’oc.

True. And langue d’oc comes from the word for “yes”, see Wikipedia quote:

Langue d’oïl (in the singular), Oïl dialects and Oïl languages (in the plural) designate the ancient northern Gallo-Romance languages as well as their modern-day descendants. They share many linguistic features, a prominent one being the word oïl for yes. (Oc was and still is the southern word for yes, hence the langue d’oc or Occitan languages). The most widely spoken modern Oïl language is French (oïl was pronounced [o.il] or [o.i], which has become [wi], in modern French oui).7