As johnh remarked UK has to be different.
AFAIK the max 110° turn is still in PANOPS. And that’s beside the fact that it would be adifficult manouver to make such a tight turn.
That’s why you have transitions see the thread on loading the NDB in one piece..
It’s similar at Gloucestershire EGBJ for the RNP approaches to 09 and 27, when leaving the hold at GST. The advice there from an instructor is to leave the hold on the a northerly or southerly track (as applicable) for a couple of miles before turning towards the IAF, and that keeps you within 110 degrees. It’s outside controlled airspace, and you need to maintain your own terrain clearance. You should tell ATC what you are doing (as you will be under a “procedural service”).
Indochine wrote:
The advice there from an instructor is to leave the hold on the a northerly or southerly track (as applicable) for a couple of miles before turning towards the IAF, and that keeps you within 110 degrees.
@Indochine, right, but what is the regulation demanding it?
Or is it just an advise?
Thanks!
arj1 wrote:
what is the regulation demanding it?
The regulation is NCO.OP.115 Departure and approach procedures – aeroplanes and helicopters: (a) The pilot-in-command shall use the departure and approach procedures established by the State of the aerodrome, if such procedures have been published for the runway or FATO to be used.
In this case the CAA has provided an approach procedure which specifies that you must arrive at ADSON on a track between 031° and 141°, so that’s what you have to do. (Although this could certainly have been specified more clearly!) If you start at CIT, then you must self-position to arrive over ADSON on such a track.
I would probably fly direct to ADSON, continue past the waypoint on the same track for one minute and then turn left back to it. It would also be possible to head west of ADSON and turn right so as to achieve a track of 031° or more. That would save you two minutes or so, but be easier to mess up. Or you request vectors.
Airborne_Again wrote:
In this case the CAA has provided an approach procedure which specifies that you must arrive at ADSON on a track between 031° and 141°, so that’s what you have to do. (Although this could certainly have been specified more clearly!) If you start at CIT, then you must self-position to arrive over ADSON on such a track.
@Airborne_Again, where does it say in the procedure? All I see is that when I arrive from a certain sector in relation to ADSON and the IF (TC21I), then I should use ADSON. Am I misinterpreting things here? Thanks!
arj1 wrote:
where does it say in the procedure? All I see is that when I arrive from a certain sector in relation to ADSON and the IF (TC21I), then I should use ADSON. Am I misinterpreting things here? Thanks!
As you say, the chart shows that you should use ADSON when arriving from a certain sector, and BAPIS or BEDLU from other sectors. But when starting at CIT you are not in any of these sectors, so you need to do some manoeuvering to get into one of them.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Or you request vectors.
Probably anywhere but the UK. Or are vectors provided outside controlled airspace in the UK? Sounds like self-positioning using one of the suggested techniques is the only option.
In reality, in real life, you may do something else, but for a test and to comply with the approach design you need to join as indicated.
If you need to self position by a few degrees, you can make that decision early, tell the examiner that is what you are doing and why.
If he’s on the same page all will be well. If he thinks it’s nonsense, he’ll tell you so and suggest you route direct to the IAF.
After all turning more than 110 degrees is a factor that only you can decide is acceptable, in the situation that you are actually in.
Airborne_Again wrote:
As you say, the chart shows that you should use ADSON when arriving from a certain sector, and BAPIS or BEDLU from other sectors. But when starting at CIT you are not in any of these sectors, so you need to do some manoeuvering to get into one of them.
@Airborne_Again, the moment you exit the hold (and start flying west of the FAT), you are in the correct sector for ADSON. Please note that this pie diagram has got TC21I in the top right corner, so technically it is in the right sector (unlike Jepp where there is no reference to the IF in the pie diagram) and could fly directly to ADSON (especially if APP tells you "cleared for the procedure via ADSON, report ADSON).
