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How many people drop out of a fly-in (or just don't fly to that airport) if the airport requires a prior notice (PN/PNR) or prior permission (PNR)?

Hard to get this data because few like to admit they dropped out due to “hassle”, but it would be interesting to hear views.

We’ve had a couple of “hard cases” lately like La Rochelle and Caen and I get the feeling that organising meetups at these places is nearly impossible.

It is hard enough at an airport which needs a significant amount of comms on the part of the pilot. We had lots of problems with Tivat and when I look back over the years, the best attended meet-ups were one which – apart from ticking the usual boxes; already much discussed – were “friendly” airports, which didn’t threaten to fine you €10k or throw you in prison if the PN email does not arrive

The PN landscape started in a big way in France about 10 years ago and it has become worse lately. Hard to say why; some of it is a CV19 hangover (suspending schengen, basically) while some of it looks like localised police “negative work generation measure”, or possibly local politics.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

If PN is reasonable I don’t mind too much – I usually like to call the airport anyway before taking off to get any last minute gouge.

Reasonable for me means within an hour of takeoff or less. 24h or more PNR is annoying, since you might decide based on many factors to go or not go “last minute”.

Some of us work, and if we get a gap in the schedule, cancelled meeting, nice weather, etc. might decide to fly somewhere the night before or even during the same day.

PNR 24h essentially makes that impossible. Adding the hassle of PN for customs on both ends, double difficult. Thankfully DE and FR don’t require customs any longer for CH originating flights, but CH still requires customs to leave and return.

Fly more.
LSGY, Switzerland

For my own “not a fly-in” spontaneous touristic/leisure activity, PNs of more than a few hours are generally disqualifying; I often decide “the evening before” or “in the morning same day” what I’m going to do / where I’m going, and long PNs, or most kinds of PPRs, make that just impossible.

For a fly-in, or a scheduled travel, I’ll generally make the effort. Even slots in GCR format, the whole lot.

ELLX

This is such a depressing subject, things seem to only get worse. The days when one could have a nice outing to Cherbourg for Luc and Edith’s creamed cabillaud are a distant memory. At least Le Pen is not [yet] president and it is still actually possible to visit France.

I get headline emails from Le Monde, but cheapskating without a subscription I can’t read the articles. A few days ago there was a headline about a recent judgement of the ECJ regarding France’s 2015 suspension of Schengen. Maybe someone here can say whether anything is changing on that front. It would seem that exceptions to France’s general observation of Schengen freedoms can be imposed by local police officials (such as at La Rochelle, Bergerac).

“PN * hrs” is a nuisance but “PPR * hrs” is much more off-putting, and some French airports now seem to use these abbreviations interchangeably. PPR means I must get a reply whereas PN means I only have to show proof (which I will have on my laptop) of sending. For VFR flying 48 hours is not feasible. Presumably the police officials who set these time limits don’t care whether there is any adverse effect on traffic, or maybe less traffic is welcome.

Bluebeard
EIKH, Ireland

some French airports now seem to use these abbreviations interchangeably. PPR means I must get a reply whereas PN means I only have to show proof

I have never got a reply to my emails, written in French or English, peu importe & never mind !

The only time I got firm confirmation was when asking PN by phone and handing details

Paris/Essex, France, , United Kingdom

regarding France’s 2015 suspension of Schengen

Schengen suspension thread.

“PPR * hrs” is much more off-putting

The problem is that, in certain countries, the officials (the police) have near-zero ELP, not to mention zero interest in doing their job for the airport. So trying to extract a “receipt” (which practically speaking, you do want, especially in cases like Caen’s aggressive posture (link above)) can be difficult or impossible.

But it’s always been difficult in some places. Greece? We just aren’t used to it spreading so widely. Traditionally the handler or the OPS office will liase for you and email you back, but with La Rochelle there is no evident communication between the police and anybody else.

If all these locations were dumps, nobody would care, but a lot of them are nice destinations.

Some are happy to risk it. Personally, I won’t, because when you land, they have you by the balls. It’s OK if it isn’t your plane

On the way back out it is rather easier, using the “diversion” option – so long as you do it rarely, especially out of Germany. And never file a flight plan which itself breaches the rule. I’ve personally seen ATC/AFIS cancel such flight plans.

The only time I got firm confirmation was when asking PN by phone and handing details

That’s because you speak French

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

It really gets interesting if not only your destination but also your homebase has slots and PPR. To coordinate the two may prove impossible or require landing somewhere else to wait out the slot at the arrival airport.

It is also worth noting that while airliners are the main reason we have regulated airports with slots, it is generally accepted that airliners have delays and bust their slots without having to ask for new ones. GA however gets busted regularly if they suffer delay somewhere and may be stranded due to no availability of departure slots once they are ready. This is also something EASA’s GA roadmap should have a look at.

While I would not really let PPR/PNR discourage me in total, it would certainly make me think if I want to fly to an airport which is this inflexible. GA is notoriously unpunctual and it is a safety risk that those airports demand on schedule ops for GA planes, as it may lead pilots to rush or hurry up things they normally exercise more due diligence with. Hence I much prefer fly ins to places who still welcome GA without trying to get rid of them via such measures.

LSZH, Switzerland

Something just passed my mind when reading this threat.
PNR / PPR imposes to notify.. not to actually go.

What would the adverse reaction be if you notify/request when you intend to go?

Obviously for PPR they could retaliate if you do not go a first time and ask for a PPR a second time by refusing the second PPR, but that would mean they keep track of your info which (1) I doubt they do, (2) I wonder to which extend this would be in line with GDPR.
For PNR I do not see what they could do…

Happy to have your views on this

jfw
Belgium: EBGB (Grimbergen, Brussels) - EBNM (Namur), Belgium

jfw wrote:

PNR / PPR imposes to notify.. not to actually go.What would the adverse reaction be if you notify/request when you intend to go?

If you don’t turn up after PPR

PPR

I learned from one ATC in Glocester in UK that he will trigger SAR based on PPR if an aircraft does not turn up after ETA+30min (the guy just invented flight plans),he will do whatever it takes to ‘save a lost aircraft’, he did save plenty already, he claims full credit for finding the wreckage of one missing PPR aircraft

Last Edited by Ibra at 12 May 12:09
Paris/Essex, France, , United Kingdom

I doubt they will “trigger S&R”. This is not UK procedure. They might make some phone calls e.g. to your number. Scilly Isles does that.

But, in the UK at least, if you don’t arrive, nothing bad happens. And AFAICT elsewhere too.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
21 Posts
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