Hold short of runway

Ibra wrote:

I had land and “hold short of the runway” but it was Nassau Lynden airport, the short runway had 1.5km available before crossing (more than enough for C177), the long runway was 3.5km with an A320 rolling after touch down, I doubt this clearance is used anywhere in Europe?

LSZH (Zurich) has a LAHSO procedure for landing small planes on runway 28 while 16/34 are in use. Published in the AD-INFO, got to do it once.

Malibuflyer wrote:

Gosh… I wonder what the FI was thinking letting her go solo…

Can an ATCO deny take-off clearance based on utter pilot incompetence?

@Malibuflyer wrote “When two native speakers talk to each other (that is the big advantage of the US), it might be ok to use more common language and less standard phrases”
That is in fact not the FAAs thinking. On several occasions they have reinforced to point that standard aviation phraseology should always be used. The one time I remember well around 2007 was following a Cessna lining up on the wrong runway whilst a passenger liner was landing on the same runway. The AT controller was handling 7 frequencies at the same time. The airfield had just got ground radar but was not yet up and running fully. And the Cessna driver who had just landed not long before had got tunnel vision and had not realised that take off and landings were taking place on different runways so he headed back to the runway he had landed on.

Malibuflyer wrote:

I wouldn’t expect that to change much because then there will be the pilots saying “but they did not tell me to hold there”.

Airborne_Again wrote:

ATC can just as well say “taxi to holding point”.

I wouldn’t expect that to change much because then there will be the pilots saying “but they did not tell me to hold there”.

Comes back to the same basic rule: When it is about clearances it is not about thinking but about knowing and doing. The words don’t matter at all as pilots should have learned what a specific phrase means. That is exactly why standard phraseology is so important in Europe.
When two native speakers talk to each other (that is the big advantage of the US), it might be ok to use more common language and less standard phrases. When two non native speakers talk (or even worse a native speaker with a non native) it is absolutely essential to use standard phrases – and to know what they mean.

Malibuflyer wrote:

Therefore what the Belgium ATC really should have pointed out is: Clearances are well defined instructions. Do not care about the words but just damn do what you have learned when you hear the phrase.

And there is really no need to use the “hold short” phrase when there are well-defined holding points. ATC can just as well say “taxi to holding point”.

I think the problem is a misinterpretation of the word “short” by many non native English speakers.

For most non natives, the word “short” only has the connotation of having little length or brief duration in time. Therefore “hold short” sounds to them like they have to stay briefly and or in close proximity to the runway – they could even completely misread it by thinking the “short” is the explicit request to not stay away too far.

The fact that in the English language the word “short” when used as adverb also has the meaning of “at some point before a limit aimed at” (like in “the bombs fell short of the target”) is not so well known and particularly not in the “unconscious understanding” of many.

Therefore what the Belgium ATC really should have pointed out is: Clearances are well defined instructions. Do not care about the words but just damn do what you have learned when you hear the phrase. If you learn that “Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!” means “leave your plane and run around it once” then just do it and don’t think about the words.

Ibra wrote:

Yes but it does not say the boundary between runway & taxiway, A1 hold = Rwy 26R & A2 hold = Rwy 26L, if I get “hold short of runway 26L”, I know where I should stop

I still don’t see the problem…

Yes but it does not say the boundary between runway & taxiway, A1 hold = Rwy 26R & A2 hold = Rwy 26L, if I get “hold short of runway 26L”, I know where I should stop