Peter wrote:
In France you can fly more or less everywhere without Mode S,
I didnt say you couldnt. I said that for class C access you need Mode S and that a cursory glance at FR24 for french GA will reveal many MLAT traces over ADSB.
My observation is that Mode S is prevalent because the French Mode S exemptions came late and many clubs forked out early.
Regards, SD..
Mode S is a requirement for all IFR flights in France. Most club aircraft are equipped with Mode C transponder and have been for many years.
Most gliders in France are equipped with FLARM Unlike the UK where it has been allowed to fly gliders in cloud for many years, I believe that has only recently become the case in France.
Class G above 3000ft level or 1000ft sfc whichever is the higher, requires the semi circular rule with 1000’s for IFR and +500 vfr.
IFR in class G must be above 3000ft and 2 way contact maintained.
There are exceptions and other rules but I don’t think they would have played much part in this incident.
It is very possible that in this case neither aircraft was transmitting on the radio.
Thanks gallois for clarifying that, yes France has FLARM in every glider except some rare vintages, the guy (Claude LeTallec) who invented FLARM algorithm and pushed for it across FFVV was top GA pilot/lobbyist and leader in aeronautical research/academia (funny I had him as supervisor at ONERA and has his relative Patrick LeTallec as Mechanical Engineering teacher), sadly he died this year !
Back to the topic, I wonder how many ULMs have transponders or FLARM/ABSB ?
Article with details:
Crash d’un ULM et d’un avion de tourisme : les pilotes étaient des professionnels expérimentés
The DR was a discovery flight (again!) flown by an aeroclub’s president from Poitiers.
The Pioneer was flown by the Pioneer french dealer based in Chatellerault. It fell on the front yard of a suburban house, hopefully empty at the time of the crash.
It occurred over Loches, in Poitiers FIS sector.
As usual for collisions, weather was great.
As usual, we have little hope to explain it. Probably distraction in the look-out.
The really tragic thing is that MACs like this are easily preventable with ADS-B in/out. It certainly has saved my bacon already a couple of times, or at least prevented change of underwear. From the article it sounds like the DR was on a sightseeing flight over the Loire chateaux and I wouldn’’t be too surprised if the UL was doing the same. It’s exactly situations like that that are dangerous:
- points of sightseeing interest
- choke point in the air (defined by the Loire river in this case)
- pilot(s) paying more attention to the sights than to flying the airplane
With ADS-B you see who is doing what and where including a trend vector. You even get the callsign so can contact the other airplane directly if need be.
ADS-B and on ADSB-based collision avoidance should finally become compulsory worldwide. The US have it now, it is time that Europe stops dicking around with the lives of people with home brewed “solutions” like Flarm, which are nice and fine as long as everyone has it, but become massively useless if not. Collision avoidance is a sore subject since many years but could finally be implemented properly with compulsory equipment.
Several accident reports of collisions have pointed out repeatedly that see and avoid just does not work. Therefore it is time for regulators and avionic manufacturers to do their job and get ADSB implemented properly here in Europe.
Therefore it is time for regulators and avionic manufacturers to do their job and get ADSB implemented properly here in Europe.
Correct. And include the RPAS in that implementation as well.
Unfortunately ADS-B is not a universal requirement in the US, neither in nor out. Round here, Out is required because we’re in the “Class B veil” for KSFO. But when we spend time near San Luis Obispo (half way to LA), small planes never show up on FR24 – as long as all you do is potter about locally, you don’t need Out. And In is optional everywhere, though personally I hate flying without it.
It is unlikely that ADS-B will ever (in the foreseeable future) be mandated for VFR OCAS anywhere in Europe where transponders are not mandatory.
There are too many issues with portable devices, even if SIL=1+ was mandatory (so they showed up on certified ADS-B IN systems). You tend to get poor antenna performance. Even “proper” transponder installations are often crap; I might see somebody (on my TAS605) only at 1nm and somebody else, both light GA, at 15nm, and both on the same vector.
The DR was based in LFBI so it had prob99 a working transponder. He most probably kept it on and was possibly still on freq with Poitiers info. But with passengers, sometimes you can’t find talk to them, show them landmarks while keeping a good listening watch. It was a weekend so frequency was maybe busy.
As of the UL, no idea if it had a txpdr or not.
Funny to see americans loving ADS-B, while so sensitive to any freedom issues. What if you had to have a gps tracker in your car at all times ? Personally I have mixed feelings.
