What is interesting is that no route generation tool has ever generated a waypoint which wasn’t in my KLN94 GPS.
autorouter can do that, especially in Germany 
We’ve had them remove duff waypoints by the dozen. Everything that’s in ENR 4.4 of the AIP should be found in your navigator plus waypoints used for procedures. The procedure only waypoints are not in all tools, particularly those that are based on the EAD (electronic AIP). SkyDemon is an example.
some ATC, particularly German, have a collection of waypoints on their radar overlay, and when they want you to turn left 10 degrees, they find one which lies in about right place, and give it to you
Indeed, they always prefer waypoints over headings, much less workload.
What is interesting is that no route generation tool has ever generated a waypoint which wasn’t in my KLN94 GPS.
Never, not once.
It doesn’t matter whether the waypoints came from
All the waypoints I have seen which were not in the GPS were ones issued by ATC and not on my filed route.
I think what may be happening is that some ATC, particularly German, have a collection of waypoints on their radar overlay, and when they want you to turn left 10 degrees, they find one which lies in about right place, and give it to you… I don’t think they realise that some of these are not in any enroute database.
It’s the consequences of flaws in flight planning systems which concerns me, which was the trigger to post…
OK, I didn’t get that from your post.
I think there is only one person who could assess (at this point) if I was mentally overloaded and am capable of holding my ATT and Heading yes or no and that is myself as I was alone JasonC. I still have a log file it shows a rather straight line vertical and horizontal…well almost RVSM compliant
Fine. So long as you are happy with how it went I guess that is ok.
It’s the consequences of flaws in flight planning systems which concerns me, which was the trigger to post…
Hereby I would like to conclude my input that probably I need better reading glasses or even better take a magnifying glass on board..
I think there is only one person who could assess (at this point) if I was mentally overloaded and am capable of holding my ATT and Heading yes or no and that is myself as I was alone JasonC… 
: I still have a log file it shows a rather straight line vertical and horizontal…well almost RVSM compliant
I agree Achim. They do assume familiarity. That is what I meant when sometimes asking for a spelling resolves the problem.
In my G1000, piper apparently enabled an option which does not load all of the waypoints on an airway. You can find them if you know via an undocumented function. It led to plenty of similar exchanges – direct XYZ. That isn’t on my flight plan. Yes it is, X Y Z. So we all have avionics quirks.
Even airliners do that.
I think it makes a huge difference if you know the area and in 99% of the cases airliners are intimately familiar with the route. I’ve flown Stuttgart West-Belgium a couple of times now and I am very familiar with all the waypoints making it so much easier. Knowing that “direct Brussels” means “BUB”, knowing that SUXIM is the hand-over between German and Belgium ATC, knowing that Mackel is MAK and Olno is LNO gives you a major advantage. Heck, I even know which frequency is going to come when. ATC have a habit of assuming this familiarity unfortunately.
Take this example GISNO. look it up it’s part of a SID departure I think from Frankfurt. I can’t find GISNO in my KLN90B. It’s not in the ENR section of the AIP. Still it was part of several flight plans I submitted and where accepted by flight planning systems
Sorry so did you file a waypoint that wasn’t in your database? Can easily happen with modern planning systems. Of course the controller was behaving badly but my concern was more with your comment:
He happily came back and mentioned (rather arrogantly) to take a close look at my map. (This is like trying to find a needle in haystack …
Well I folded the map open took a look and….gave up…;-) , as it is impossible to do that, when hand-flying. I have SD but you can forget to that when alone with an U/S A/P @FL140, I told ATC unable to look at my map as I am single pilot IFR and my A/P is not working, and further would appreciate a next existent way point…
It sounds like you were somewhat overloaded due to a rerouting and not having an autopilot. My point is only that you should normally have enough capacity to be able to look something up even while hand flying. Of course it is harder. Could it have been a spelling issue on the waypoint? In that environment I completely agree that the controller should have helped reduce your workload and it was not the time for a lecture on map folding.
Above FL200 things are different and more stable the lower airspace is where all the complexities are…
I fly through plenty of terminal areas and get rerouted all the time.
None of this is meant to be critical just help understand what was going on and what can be learned from it.
I am afraid that Achimba’s last statement is partially true… Therefore my opinion (as wearing the Pilot hat now when writing this) my KLN90B is B-RNAV certified and TSO’d when I update it, nobody can even think of making a complaint.(if the rest of the ATS Flight Planning system has it flaws it’s about time to do something about it….)..As pilots I think we are still sitting in the drivers seat and should always assume PIC responsibilities even it is not what ATC likes….Above FL200 things are different and more stable the lower airspace is where all the complexities are…
So, thanks guys good discussion. I knew I was going to stir in the pot….;-) (Flemish expression don’t know if it’s correct oxford English..;-))
But anyway. I think you should be able to fly your complex hi-performance aircraft without A/P if the situation is there and I am far from a Sky God by all means. Does it increase workload? Yes a lot, I would say…But it was real good practice…flying 8 hours like that…;-)
Would I do it on a regular basis on a more then three hours leg’s? No…I delayed my return flight with one day as I was not comfortable with the weather…. My bird is grounded now A/P repair plus I finally decided to install an SN3500 sandel unit (hope to report on that soon)
I think having the IR rating is one thing but I have my personal minima (given my limited IFR experience)..about the points,well…it’s not all rise and shine for sure…;-)
Indeed you have two options for Frankfurt climb or accept a re-route. If you have O2 then FL140 is an option to get a more direct route
Was I happy with the situation over Germany. No honestly I was pissed off, as the service is sometimes person dependent (mostly I find ATC quite helpful, maybe the guy had a bad hair day..;-)). In addition around Frankfurt and Paris frequent frequency changes do increase the workload. I think I am quite comfortable when talking to controllers but this situation could cause, as Achimba mentioned, additional stress on the Pilot due to uncertainty factors:
Take this example GISNO. look it up it’s part of a SID departure I think from Frankfurt. I can’t find GISNO in my KLN90B. It’s not in the ENR section of the AIP. Still it was part of several flight plans I submitted and where accepted by flight planning systems
Maybe you can use in an FMS of an Airbus 320 (I doubt it as) SID STAR points have a different record type in ARINC424 I believe..?
I think a lot still can be improved in lower Airspace. Data
Pilots with GNS430/530 (i.e. pre WAAS) have this problem all the time. Garmin deleted a lot of waypoints, especially in Germany, due to database capacity issues. This (mostly?) applies to waypoints which are not enroute waypoints but part of a procedure. German ATC are fond of them.
OK that explains it. They are in the Jepp database which is the same for all but Garmin remove some in some devices. I didn’t realise that.
I wouldn’t look at maps or airways when it only takes ATC a second to give you an instruction you can make sense of.
I agree and as I said below I would just ask them for another waypoint. Even airliners do that.
you must be able to hand fly while doing tricky stuff IMHO.
If I’m single pilot IFR without autopilot (btw, illegal for a German registered airplane), then I wouldn’t look at maps or airways when it only takes ATC a second to give you an instruction you can make sense of. Their job is to guarantee safety and smooth operation, not lecture pilots. I wouldn’t invoke this skill and the stress (+ danger) it brings just for the convenience of somebody on the ground who works for me.
But they should all be in your database. I have never had a waypoint not in my database.
Pilots with GNS430/530 (i.e. pre WAAS) have this problem all the time. Garmin deleted a lot of waypoints, especially in Germany, due to database capacity issues. This (mostly?) applies to waypoints which are not enroute waypoints but part of a procedure. German ATC are fond of them.
Another issue especially in Germany is that IFPS has a lot of waypoints and navaids in its database that should not be there. Either they were removed some time ago and not reported as such to Eurocontrol or they should never have gone into the database (e.g. military stuff). I’ve gotten Eurocontrol to remove more than 10 such waypoints in the last months. A whole set of incomplete and incorrect nav databases are the backbone of European air navigation unfortunately.
