A month ago or so I was over Frankfurt @ FL140. DFS gave me a complete different routing then on my eurocontrol flpln. ATC cleared me to a point I couldn’t find in my data base (again). I told the controller I can’t find the way point in my (current) KLN90B data base. He happily came back and mentioned (rather arrogantly) to take a close look at my map. (This is like trying to find a needle in haystack …
Well I folded the map open took a look and….gave up…;-) , as it is impossible to do that, when hand-flying. I have SD but you can forget to that when alone with an U/S A/P @FL140, I told ATC unable to look at my map as I am single pilot IFR and my A/P is not working, and further would appreciate a next existent way point… After 5 minutes another controller came back and told me to join ZVXXX Airway (can’t remember after waypoint X). Again I told him I can’t look at my map as due to workload. The chap was quite understanding this time and told me he would lock me into a heading and, which heading I would like….285 and yes I flew DCT to Belgium….;-). With the current spider network of Routes in Europe flying DCT way points seems to be only pragmatic approach to me. Heavy jets have an FMS which can handle Airways..not so for our GNS, KLN GPS’s second generation..to my understanding is Free Route Airspace the way to go..;-))..just a couple of exit and entry points
Vref, while I understand your issue, I am not sure it is unreasonable for a controller to ask you to route to a GPS waypoint when you are navigating by GPS.
Where do your updates come from? Sounds like they need a kick. I have heard plenty of airliners say not in database can I have another waypoint. Did you try that?
Alternatively you can try saying that the waypoint is not in your flightplan, and ask for an initial vector while you find it. That takes the pressure off.
Sure, but are we not flying B-RNAV in Europe (RNAV-5)? This means that you only need to fly ENR points which are published in ENR section of the AIP…except the departure or arrival which can be part of a SID STAR
I didn’t have time yet to dig into detail but I think its about un-named (non ICAO) way points part of SID STARS which pop up in the middle Flight Plans etc….
In my case I couldn’t find the point then they asked to follow an Airway after a certain different way point and things start to become complicated, finding the waypoint was no issue through the GPS but then finding the following Airway on a map…?? When you see 35 NM bearing 273 on the KLN and then you have to vector that on JEPP map while handling the aircraft with no A/P ..over Frankfurt? I asked for a different (next) way point but then they suggested to lock me into heading which was fine for me….;-)
KLN90B is Honeywell. However I think the problem comes from somewhere else..;-)…. Its all not a such a big deal however I noticed that around Frankfurt it common practice to re-route you (I have no problem with that when the points exist..;-)..)
DFS gave me a complete different routing then on my eurocontrol flpln.
That is common, I find. I don’t know whether it is the routing tools or ATC practices…
ATC cleared me to a point I couldn’t find in my data base (again).
That is unusual but it does happen. I just tell them “not in the database” and they give me another one. Eurocontrol IFR, I always fly with the current database, which comes from Jepp just like yours and everybody else’s in GA.
Sometimes, however, the “nonexistent” waypoint is due to a combination of
ATC miss a lot of incorrect readbacks, due to poor ELP. This is the usual reason for “incorrect” frequencies. One hears this on every IFR flight. The misheard it, pilot reads it back wrong but ATC don’t pick up the wrong readback.
I told the controller I can’t find the way point in my (current) KLN90B data base. He happily came back and mentioned (rather arrogantly) to take a close look at my map.
What an idiot he was. He obviously has never been in a cockpit.
After 5 minutes another controller came back and told me to join ZVXXX Airway
He is entitled to ask that but it would throw off most pilots, including jet pilots. Most people don’t have a quick means of sorting that out.
un-named (non ICAO) way points part of SID STARS which pop up in the middle Flight Plans etc….
They should still be in the current database cycle. They are not entitled to give you others for enroute flight.
Frankfurt can’t be overflown below about FL130.
Sure, but are we not flying B-RNAV in Europe (RNAV-5)? This means that you only need to fly ENR points which are published in ENR section of the AIP…except the departure or arrival which can be part of a SID STAR
But they should all be in your database. I have never had a waypoint not in my database.
In my case I couldn’t find the point then they asked to follow an Airway after a certain different way point and things start to become complicated, finding the waypoint was no issue through the GPS but then finding the following Airway on a map…??
Following an airway is hard unless your avionics help. GTN650/750, G1000 or maybe IFD can do it but otherwise very tricky.
When you see 35 NM bearing 273 on the KLN and then you have to vector that on JEPP map while handling the aircraft with no A/P ..over Frankfurt?
Yes but you must be able to hand fly while doing tricky stuff IMHO.
However I think the problem comes from somewhere else..;-)
If you mean Jeppesen then I can’t agree. They are a pain but their database is good.
As a final point I think that it is worth considering whether you should depart with a U/S autopilot. In a high performance aircraft that is a grounding item for an IFR flight in my view.
I have never had a waypoint not in my database
Maybe that’s because you have a turboprop and fly about 15000ft higher than almost anybody else here i.e. upper airways?
you must be able to hand fly while doing tricky stuff IMHO.
Only a sky god can do that and we have very few of them here 
Yes one can do that but it’s hard work and you don’t do it by choice.
I have seen loads of cases of waypoints not appearing in the current cycle, though one can’t tell if it is Jepp or ATC.their database is good
In a high performance aircraft that is a grounding item for an IFR flight in my view.
That I agree with.
you must be able to hand fly while doing tricky stuff IMHO.
Only a sky god can do that and we have very few of them here. Yes one can do that but it’s hard work and you don’t do it by choice.
I agree with your second sentence but strongly disagree with your first. It is a core skill that we all have an obligation to maintain. Invoking the sky god term belongs on another forum.
you must be able to hand fly while doing tricky stuff IMHO.
If I’m single pilot IFR without autopilot (btw, illegal for a German registered airplane), then I wouldn’t look at maps or airways when it only takes ATC a second to give you an instruction you can make sense of. Their job is to guarantee safety and smooth operation, not lecture pilots. I wouldn’t invoke this skill and the stress (+ danger) it brings just for the convenience of somebody on the ground who works for me.
But they should all be in your database. I have never had a waypoint not in my database.
Pilots with GNS430/530 (i.e. pre WAAS) have this problem all the time. Garmin deleted a lot of waypoints, especially in Germany, due to database capacity issues. This (mostly?) applies to waypoints which are not enroute waypoints but part of a procedure. German ATC are fond of them.
Another issue especially in Germany is that IFPS has a lot of waypoints and navaids in its database that should not be there. Either they were removed some time ago and not reported as such to Eurocontrol or they should never have gone into the database (e.g. military stuff). I’ve gotten Eurocontrol to remove more than 10 such waypoints in the last months. A whole set of incomplete and incorrect nav databases are the backbone of European air navigation unfortunately.
Pilots with GNS430/530 (i.e. pre WAAS) have this problem all the time. Garmin deleted a lot of waypoints, especially in Germany, due to database capacity issues. This (mostly?) applies to waypoints which are not enroute waypoints but part of a procedure. German ATC are fond of them.
OK that explains it. They are in the Jepp database which is the same for all but Garmin remove some in some devices. I didn’t realise that.
I wouldn’t look at maps or airways when it only takes ATC a second to give you an instruction you can make sense of.
I agree and as I said below I would just ask them for another waypoint. Even airliners do that.
I am afraid that Achimba’s last statement is partially true… Therefore my opinion (as wearing the Pilot hat now when writing this) my KLN90B is B-RNAV certified and TSO’d when I update it, nobody can even think of making a complaint.(if the rest of the ATS Flight Planning system has it flaws it’s about time to do something about it….)..As pilots I think we are still sitting in the drivers seat and should always assume PIC responsibilities even it is not what ATC likes….Above FL200 things are different and more stable the lower airspace is where all the complexities are…
So, thanks guys good discussion. I knew I was going to stir in the pot….;-) (Flemish expression don’t know if it’s correct oxford English..;-))
But anyway. I think you should be able to fly your complex hi-performance aircraft without A/P if the situation is there and I am far from a Sky God by all means. Does it increase workload? Yes a lot, I would say…But it was real good practice…flying 8 hours like that…;-)
Would I do it on a regular basis on a more then three hours leg’s? No…I delayed my return flight with one day as I was not comfortable with the weather…. My bird is grounded now A/P repair plus I finally decided to install an SN3500 sandel unit (hope to report on that soon)
I think having the IR rating is one thing but I have my personal minima (given my limited IFR experience)..about the points,well…it’s not all rise and shine for sure…;-)
Indeed you have two options for Frankfurt climb or accept a re-route. If you have O2 then FL140 is an option to get a more direct route
Was I happy with the situation over Germany. No honestly I was pissed off, as the service is sometimes person dependent (mostly I find ATC quite helpful, maybe the guy had a bad hair day..;-)). In addition around Frankfurt and Paris frequent frequency changes do increase the workload. I think I am quite comfortable when talking to controllers but this situation could cause, as Achimba mentioned, additional stress on the Pilot due to uncertainty factors:
Take this example GISNO. look it up it’s part of a SID departure I think from Frankfurt. I can’t find GISNO in my KLN90B. It’s not in the ENR section of the AIP. Still it was part of several flight plans I submitted and where accepted by flight planning systems
Maybe you can use in an FMS of an Airbus 320 (I doubt it as) SID STAR points have a different record type in ARINC424 I believe..?
I think a lot still can be improved in lower Airspace. Data
