gallois wrote:
@arj1, can you explain why you can’t fly Fl 90 to LFBI, assuming your track obeys the semi circular rule. Are you talking about an IFR flight from LFOP to LFBI? In an SEP I would have thought the only section which might be a problem in terms of glide is the section around Paris, but you would be to the west mainly and there are usually quite a few fields you could glide to from 9000ft even on a brick.
I’m trying to find an IFR route from EGTR to a couple of airfields in north-western France. Latest example is EGTR-LFOP. It does not validate:
EGTR N0121F090 DET DCT DVR L10 RINTI B3 CMB R50 DPE LFOP
“(R)PROF205: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EGTTFIR IS OFF MANDATORY ROUTE REF:[EGLF1022B] SITET”
And “EGLF1022” in RADAN spreadsheet says:
“Not available for traffic
ARR LFOE/OH/OP/RG/RK
Above FL135 at ETRAT
-————————————————————————-
Compulsory for traffic
1. DEP EGTTFIR Except LONDON_GROUP
With ARR ORLY_GROUP, LFBI/OE/OP
2. ARR LFRG
Via EGTT01LUW/EGTT18SFD”
And “This traffic shall flight plan to be FL130 or below at ETRAT
-——————————————————————————————————————
Traffic orientation via SITET/XAMAB/XIDIL”
Which (as I’ve been told by Eurocontrol) is the limitation applied in IFPS (even after I reminded them that this is not the safest route for a SEP, and DVR-RNTI is better).
Sorry I went on tangent for SEP over built up areas, what you want is minimal channel crossing on IFR? most French airways are one way on the shortest crossing DVR/LFAT, the hack around it is to file whatever AR gives then ask LTC to go east and once you get to French side you ask for the short crossing 
The other hack is to file Calais & LeTouquet 
There is a good reason why AR/LTC will send you to XIDIL when going to France have you never wondered what the triangles for Paris TMA7.3 and TMA7.4 are?
They are not Echo Airways and they are not listed as official Paris TMA, those triangle shapes may appear like SkyDemon bugs of parsing AIP data but actually SkyDemon got these right as per AIP but apparently these pieces of Echo TMA protect M605 Airways arrival via XIDIL with BIBAX terminus, then BIBAX STAR for piston aircrafts to CharlesDeGaule and also apply to other nearby airports (comes handy for someone who flies C172 to CDG at FL90 or TBM but but losing 17kft in 50 NM from FL240 needs strong ears even in pressurised aircraft)
LTC will try to cast you on that narrow corridor route for Paris controllers (Rouen & CDG) but if you are talking to Lille ATC you can do what you wish toward LeTouquet & Calais, irrespective of the route you have filed
This could be a suggestion for @Peter Shoreham to CDG in TB20
EGKA N0098F090 SFD DCT HARDY M605 BIBAX BIBAX9P LFPG
Ibra wrote:
Sorry I went on tangent for SEP over built up areas, what you want is minimal channel crossing on IFR? most French airways are one way on the shortest crossing DVR/LFAT, the hack around it is to file whatever AR gives then ask LTC to go east and once you get to French side you ask for the short crossing
@ibra, as I’ve been told previously “you MUST be able to fly the route you filed”, then it means that is no option for a SEP, right?
There is absolutely no way to produce a flight plan from EGTR to LFOP and stay within gliding distance, or am I missing something?
And Autorouter does not produce anything outside those three points over the water.
Yes no way to file EGTR-LFOP via DVR, you need to carry fuel for the planned route and you MUST fly it if you lose comms but other than that you can negociate
VFR (or IFR OCAS in UK) over DVR keeps you in glide range at FL60 at 1:10 in nil winds, that could be a good choice? I hit icing once at FL80 overland in LTMA and ATC were less reactive to my taste for lateral avoidance, so I asked to leave CAS by descent and flew it via Dover OCAS at 5kft
UK from/to Rouen you need +FL160 to stay in glide range at 1:10 but honestly the risk is small, here is the size of the “gliding ring” at FL100 you are out of range for 15nm, about 5min in Mooney speeds or 10min in C172 speeds…
Ibra wrote:
Yes no way to file EGTR-LFOP via DVR, you need to carry fuel for the planned route and you MUST fly it if you lose comms but other than that you can negociateVFR (or IFR OCAS in UK) over DVR keeps you in glide range at FL60 at 1:10 in nil winds, that could be a good choice? I hit icing once at FL80 overland in LTMA and ATC were less reactive to my taste for lateral avoidance, so I asked to leave CAS by descent and flew it via Dover OCAS at 5kft
UK from/to Rouen you need +FL160 to stay in glide range at 1:10 but honestly the risk is small, here is the size of the “gliding ring” at FL100 you are out of range for 15nm, about 5min in Mooney speeds or 10min in C172 speeds…
@ibra, that FL60 glide would not be possible in all a/c, and my point was more in the lines of Eurocontrol not promoting safety! :)
I’d understood if there was a short route for twins or SEP outside glide distance and the longer/awkward one for SEPs, but if there is no route at all, that is a bit weird.
arj1 wrote:
if there is no route at all, that is a bit weird.
You can try stretching to the Alps or routing via it won’t work for EGTR-LFOP
Alternatively file 2*FPL: EGTR-LFAT/LFAC with LYD/DVR arrivals then LFAT/LFAC to LFOP?
I have done the latter once, just ask ATC (no need to bother with French customs if not landing at LFAT/LFAC but make sure you send a PNR to the guys in LFOP)
Ibra wrote:
Alternatively file 2*FPL: EGTR-LFAT/LFAC with LYD/DVR arrivals then LFAT/LFAC to LFOP?I have done the latter once, just ask ATC (no need to bother with French customs if not landing at LFAT/LFAC but make sure you send a PNR to the guys in LFOP)
Or to file LFOP as an alternate and divert? :)
PS: This is for my studying for an IR, not actual flying…
arj1 wrote:
Or to file LFOP as an alternate and divert? :)
Why not EGTR-EGTR with LFOP as alternate ?
ATC hates flights to alternate on DCT, they need to amend for sensible route, diverting out of the blue may not fly very well with them and they need to manually coordinate your slot and flight plan
However, ATC loves 2*FPL back to back and will give you departure clearance as you approach and bin the first FPL, I learned this the hard way (went IFR cloud-break to Melun, VFR to Etampes, back IFR to Melun), now I prefer do the FPL admin myself and just ask ATC what I want, you don’t look like someone who is lost
ATC loves 2*FPL back to back and will give you departure clearance as you approach and bin the first FPL
In which country?
