Yes, the jet factor, the chute and the clean and roomy interior will make this a success.
And for people looking to get into a used one down the road, I can predict one thing already – it will have a pretty low resale value in a few years making that possible for more people. Reason is that the Williams engine that comes with it is not going to be cheap to maintain and overhaul. And resale value in the jet and turboprop world is almost entirely tied to engine value. Williams have a complete monopoly on their engines, and you have only two options: a costly maintenance program, or an even costlier factory overhaul. Nobody but Williams can touch the engines. Just to give you an example of what you’re going to encounter as a Williams customer down the road;
Maintenance program: Your maintenance program is going to be something you sign for 5 years with Williams. Each 1st of Jan, Williams can and will increase the hourly cost (expect it to be $160-200/hr at least on the FJ33), or change the terms. And let’s say you go off the program and then want to come back on it, you have to pay catch-up from hour zero, all your previous payments are not accounted for. The contract on the FJ44’s requires a minimum of 150 hours per year, probably will on the FJ33 as well. How many private users are going to fly that? The contract does allow 1 year out of 5 to be below the minimum without penalty. There is a way to reduce this and that is to prepay 300 hours at the start of each year…. And don’t for a second think a maintenance program is like insurance and covers everything. Not at all, you do a hard landing, over temp, abuse, neglect, hot start, contamination, pre- existing conditions, corrosion etc and you’re on the hook for the entire overhaul amount.
Overhaul: If you’re not on the program, on the FJ44 you have a 2000hr HSI, and 4000hr TBO. Guess how much a HSI is on the FJ44 each 2000hrs? They start at $210K if nothing is wrong (and something’s always wrong when the only shop in town looks at them).. Overhaul at 4000hrs for a FJ44 is going to be at least $550K, so I doubt the FJ33 will be that much lower. So you’re looking at off program, a cool $760K for 4000hr of use if they keep FJ44 pricing… They want you to be on their maintenance program, so they price the off program accordingly. Much better to get paid each month ahead of time before you’ve even done the work, like a subscription, isn’t it?
So, as you can see, pretty quick, when the engine is getting closer to a HSI or an overhaul you’ll see a lot of SF50’s dumped for a song and a dance in maybe 5-10 years time. And the way Williams worded their TC data, each HSI or overhaul is called a Major Periodic Inspection. By being worded as an inspection, they’re now also mandatory for part 91 operators (inspections are mandatory, overhauls are not). So the Williams engines are not possible to run over TBO or on condition, like most other turboprops and jets. This will make a potential CirrusJet owner looking at one that’s off program, but getting close to a 4000hr MPI event, face the fact that the overhaul will cost much more than the aircraft is worth.
As I said, I hope they sell millions of them, but if you’re a potential customer on one of these, just know the long term reality you’re getting in to when buying them. I’m just worried that people might not entirely understand what ownership means financially when they’re afflicted by shiny jet syndrome. With Williams there is no alternate route to take, you are completely at the mercy of Williams pricing and policies. And you will be paying a higher and higher hourly fee, for a plane that’s less and less worth each year.
AdamFrisch wrote:
With Williams there is no alternate route to take, you are completely at the mercy of Williams pricing and policies.
Maybe Cirrus will ensure some special deal for their customers.
Emir wrote:
Maybe Cirrus will ensure some special deal for their customers.
Maybe. I hope so. But likely not, as one of the reasons Cirrus can sell this plane for $2 million is that Williams is selling them an engine very cheaply. They know they’ll make their money back on the maintenance program, so that’s why they can offer it for a lesser cost to Cirrus.
That said, if you buy a recent used CirrusJet and pay the $200/hr or whatever it will be, you’ll probably have a trouble free experience. And $200/hr isn’t all that bad for a jet.
Emir wrote:
Maybe Cirrus will ensure some special deal for their customers.
Judging by their past history, the best you can hope for is some trade-in as soon as they bring out the SF60 or such. When you look at G5 owners who may have bought their plane just a week before the G6 came out, they didn’t know it was coming and now have no possible way to get the new G1000 NXi in their plane. That must suck if you just spent close to one million on a new plane and already have seriously outdated avionics…
AdamFrisch wrote:
With Williams there is no alternate route to take, you are completely at the mercy of Williams pricing and policies.
How does that compare to, say, a PT6A on a TBM? Is there competition on the overhaul market, and do they have Major Periodic Inspections?
Yep, TBM beats it in every category except price. Other planes beat it too, I’m sure. But.. it’s a jet!
I think if you want a real jet upgrade from the TBM you will need a Mustang or Eclipse. Sure the Cirrus Jet allows you to tell friends and family you have a jet but besides that it is missing all the typical jet attributes. No FL400, no second engine, no speed etc.
Flying a turboprop I am not immune to the jet virus but then in the last months I experienced:
- Landing on 700m runway. A real problem with a jet without beta or reverse but easy with the turboprop.
- French ATC keeping us very low around Paris. The jet I have flown in as a co pilot would have run out of fuel very fast.
- German ATC keeping us at FL240 on some routes. Again the jet might run out of fuel.
- Landing on a runway covered with lots of water at our homebase. Brake reaction was close to non existant but a piece of cake with the beta.
- ATC vectoring us in very high and fast on the approach. Again very easy to control with the prop braking us down in no time and difficult with a jet.
So as much as I like jets for most private pilots a turboprop just works out better.
Can you take beta into account in your runway length calculations, or is it just the cherry on the cake as in an Airbus?
AdamFrisch wrote:
And for people looking to get into a used one down the road, I can predict one thing already – it will have a pretty low resale value in a few years making that possible for more people. Reason is that the Williams engine that comes with it is not going to be cheap to maintain and overhaul.
How will that be any different from a Pratt engine? Everyone will keep these on programmes.
That’s not a given, and on a Pratt, you probably won’t be penalized by choosing not to go with an overhaul program. Williams prices the overhaul program so that it makes more advantageous to be on it. A very good example is that on the MPI program, the engine magically goes from 4000hr TBO to 5000hr TBO. Nothing, zero has changed in the engine, except you sending them a monthly check. Not only that, but if you have choices of multiple overhaul shops you have options – you can put a used turbine stage in, you can weld a can liner, you can even rent or buy an exchange engine. None of that’s possible with Williams.
Pratt has similar engine programs, and they’re probably structured the same way and perhaps not cheaper, but the one variable is that multiple shops can service them and most importantly, they don’t mandate inspections, so you can run them over TBO. It’s just never a good idea to have a monopoly on these things and that’s exactly what you buy into when you buy a Williams-engined plane.
@Sebastian_G
Have you abandoned the Malibu/Mirage ?
What turboprop to you fly now ?
Sebastian_G wrote:
Other planes beat it too, I’m sure. But.. it’s a jet!I think if you want a real jet upgrade from the TBM you will need a Mustang or Eclipse. Sure the Cirrus Jet allows you to tell friends and family you have a jet but besides that it is missing all the typical jet attributes. No FL400, no second engine, no speed etc.
Sorry. Irony sometimes doesn’t get through in writing. Of course the SF50 is a Mickey Mouse Jet.
