Very useful video.I too had a problem with sound. Did I hear you say, around about the lake district that they had dropped you down to VFR and you then had a discussion about getting through Manchester airspace? Could you explain what happens and whether or not you have to dig around for your vfr charts in order to find other routes so as not to infringe CAS if necessary. I am really struggling to get my head around vfr in IMC and suddenly finding one is no longer being quasi controlled.I think IFR in France is somewhere between Sweden and UK. The only time you go VFR is before you pick up your clearance and if you decide to cancel IFR. The cancellation of IFR can only be done at the request of the pilot if I remember my air law correctly.
LeSving wrote:
Just wondering, could you do the same thing with EIR?
Yes. Conditions were VFR (just) at departure, there was no IFR departure procedure and no IFR approach procedure. Although I can’t recall that it was stated in the video, my impression was that the flight was in VMC before descending below the minimum enroute IFR level.
Had the cloudbase at departure been less than 500 ft an EIR holder could not have made the flight as you can’t legally take off VFR in that case. (Well, possibly according to UK minimum VFR height rules which, IIRC, still allow less than 500 ft AGL provided that there is more than 500 ft distance to any “person, vessel or structure”.)
gallois wrote:
vfr in IMC
It isn’t. You fly IFR (and as a reminder, very simplified, the instrument flight rules are “fly 1000ft above the highest obstacle within 5NM unless…”, and the visual flight rules are “stay in the required visibility and stick to the required cloud distances for the airspace (aka, remain VMC)”). It is “uncontrolled IFR”.
And while in the past that might have been daunting, with moving maps and EGPWS it is a lot less daunting these days. As soon as you get the hang of maneuvering in IMC without much effort, it is not much harder than VFR flying.
The difference you observe is the difference between a “Class E” environment, as in most of Europe or the US, and a “Class G” environment as in the UK.
All this formal “Cancel IFR” or “IFR starts at” makes most sense in Class E environments, where in order to fly IFR you must have an ATC clearance. So while in Class E, you need to stick to the VFR (which means remain VMC, including cloud distance) until you hear the magic words from ATC telling you IFR has started, and you must be in VMC before ATC can dump you, hence only you can cancel IFR in Class E.
In the UK, where IFR in class G is common, it is “Radar service terminated” or “Radar control service” instead. When they end their service at the airspace boundary, they cannot tell you “IFR cancelled”, whether you continue IFR or VFR after that service ends is entirely your own business
So how does lost comms work in that environment, specifically if comms are lost during a leg of an IFR FPN in G airspce? Does one need to haul out a VFR chart and try to find a way to complete the flight while remaining OCAS since there is no way to get a clearance to enter CAS? That would be very challenging in IMC given the complexity of UK airspace, especially in the south, and perhaps impossible in some places/altitudes.
Many thanks for everyone’s kind comments.
I absolutely get the point about the RT first call – sloppy on my part – must do better.
Timothy – I hope you are proud of what your former pupils are all doing these days (even me) – you should be – we are all so grateful for your dedication and enthusiasm.
The VFR/IFR rules are very confusing but having the security of an IR is very reassuring – I would heartily recommend it, especially if you need to fly in poor weather (and that is the point of the video).
Sound – yes, it’s very quiet, which is due to my recording the RT on the ‘line in’ on one GoPro, rather than on a separate sound recorder.
The GoPro records ‘line in’ sound at a low level and my editing software (iMovie) will only crank it up so far – I wish I could find a fix for this.
Regards,
David
Great video David.
It’s fun for a French to see a Robin flying IFR on top. Most here stay below 3000 ft :)
Why is the situation so different between Scotland and England for Low level IFR ?
I mean Scottish Control keeps you at 6000ft and then drops you to London Info with just a Basic Service.
chflyer wrote:
So how does lost comms work in that environment, specifically if comms are lost during a leg of an IFR FPN in G airspce? Does one need to haul out a VFR chart and try to find a way to complete the flight while remaining OCAS since there is no way to get a clearance to enter CAS? That would be very challenging in IMC given the complexity of UK airspace, especially in the south, and perhaps impossible in some places/altitudes.
The basic lost comms rule doesn’t mention clearances at all — it only talks about the “current flight plan”, meaning the filed flight plan with any amendments caused by clearances. So if I had an open IFR flight plan I wouldn’t care about the classes of airspace I was about to enter. On the other hand, if you are able to land somewhere maintaining VMC, that’s what you’re supposed to do. In any case, you should be squawking 7600 so ATC will know about your situation.
If you had a major systems failure so that both communications and the transponder was lost, then things become tricker, but the basic rule still applies.
I am no expert on this but ….. once you leave their controlled airspace, Scottish will no longer be interested in you and will ‘dump you’ on London Information (which is really a VRF service).
You can then continue ‘IFR’ in uncontrolled Class G airspace until the next bit of controlled airspace comes along – in this case Airway N57 at FL55.
At that stage, they take back ‘radar control’ and you are back in the proper IFR system.
Of course, if I chose to cruise at FL150 then I’d be in controlled airspace all the way but would be dead because I’ve got no oxygen (!) and dear old G-MOTI won’t go above FL100 anyway, so it’s low level IFR for me.
So, the whole point of this video is to demonstrate that an ordinary private pilot, like me, in an ordinary flying machine can carry on, in poor weather, if properly qualified.
So it’s worth doing an IR.
Go on – you know you want to.
Thanks Cobalt but perhaps I am not phrasing my questions well. Let’s say I file a flight plan from La Roche sur Yon (similar in size to the airfield in David’s video) to Quimper.I get a clearance through the AFIS such as cleared to Lugen, you will be outside of controlled airspace up to 5000 feet, take off at your own discretion.Note no mention of VFR as in David’s video.
So I take off and climb heading towards Lugen. At about 3000 feet I will be given a frequency change to Nantes, which confirm radar identified and will give me a clearance, perhaps DCT Bagad FL 080 (which is probably as filed) I may also be reminded that I will enter CAS at 5000 feet. From here to BAGAD I will go in and out of CAS, sometimes staying with the same ATS sometimes being given another frequency until I reach BAGAD. Whilst I will be informed that I am OCAS or CAS the only difference, normally, would be that inside CAS the controller will instruct me to turn left 10 degrees whereas OCAS the same controller might ask if I could turn left 10 degrees to avoid traffic for instance. Finally I will be transferred to Iroise App and then to Quimper for the ILS. You will note that I have never been dropped off to VFR, no difference whether I am IMC or VMC. I remain IFR.
Let’s now say on the return I decide to fly to Fontenay le Comte. If the ceiling is a little low I could file to descend below cloud using the RNAV at La Roche Sur Yon or the ILS at La Rochelle close my flight plan and then continue to FLC , vfr, if the weather is good I could file Yankee, I then choose when to cancel vfr and when to close the flight plan. Once I have chosen to go vfr I will have to obey vfr rules, eg remaining below 3000 feet because of the restricted military area around Fontenay, or negotiating clearance to transit La Rochelle class D airspace above 1400 ft.
Most of all remaining VMC. Obeying the IFR limits, eg 1000ft above obstacles with 5nm etc I would have taken account of in the planning. So the reason for my questions were that in Davids video he had already said that the ceiling was about 500 feet yet the AFIS said this is a vfr departure and David then climbed into IMC.
As I wrote before I thought I heard David say to Mrs David that he had been dropped down to VFR. For me this seems like a sort of no mans land, am I still on my IFR flight plan or am I now in vfr whether or not I am flying in vmc or Imc. I am sorry to labour the point and to all of you who know the system, I probably seem dense, but
these sort of things do worry me about flying IFR in the UK and where else can I ask the stupid questions.
The video that started this thread was about flying back from Scotland in poor weather.
There is also a previous video about the flight into Scotland – in even worse weather (Scotland is like that!)
You might be interested to see this – it demonstrates the need for instrument skills in bad weather and shows a ‘synthetic ILS’ – Garmin’s ‘Visual Approach’ (which is another subject in itself).
Apologies for the (Scottish) music.
