boscomantico wrote:
Same for Scandinavia and I am sure most other countries
It is not that long ago that the norwegian short field airports were off limits outside opening hours. @LeSving could probably provide more details on the developments. Bromma outside Stockholm is no longer too GA friendly.
at least we enjoy the freedom to fly to any of these airports in Germany whenever we want.
Within the opening hours the radio will be answered. At least i have never experienced something else.
Please keep posts specific enough to be informative
The topic was pointless PPR requirements during normal airport operating hours.
Flyer59 wrote:
Within the opening hours the radio will be answered.
There has to be a “Flugleiter” there all the time the airport is open. So how is this person paid?
Flyer59 wrote:
Within the opening hours the radio will be answered. At least i have never experienced something else.
There were an example or two posted here (other thread) about someone making a flight to a German airfield after having called ahead and made sure that they would arrive within opening hours, only to find that nobody answered and landing nevertheless.
Edit: Found this example
Has never happened to me. But if it happened and i had called, i’d land, sure thing. The Flugleiters are paid by the owner of the public airport, which many times is the town or a private company that runs the airport. At my field it’s three guys working, two in the tower, and he does the mowing of the grass, repairs and who cares about the fuel station etc.
Aviathor wrote:
nobody answered
Yes but where is the problem? When you have made your PPR you can land. Nobody must answer, he (Flugleiter) just must be “at” the field. Maybe the radio is off “oh I forgott” or he is on the pi, not a Problem. You haved booked it an can not proof is a person on the ground or not.
PPR in the UK don´t mean you are “not allowed to land” it is just a “we would like to know”. I would be always land a field for safety reason even with no PPR. With a person on the radio you can explain your request and I don´t belive they let you die :-)
PPR in the UK don´t mean you are “not allowed to land” it is just a “we would like to know”.
That’s not actually correct, unfortunately. That would be “PNR” – prior notice required.
It does work that way most of the time, probably because ATC gets sick of enforcing the stupid policy which they didn’t make, but I have personally seen cases where inbound traffic was refused. The most recent case (a few years ago) was a UK ATC airfield which was “PPR” during a 1hr period before it’s normal operating hours, and somebody turned up during this 1hr period, claiming he filed a (VFR!) flight plan which wasn’t rejected (!) so they must let him land. They didn’t. He orbited for about 30 mins. Another case was an AFIS airfield which refused inbound traffic because they didn’t send a GAR form to the airfield; a totally outrageous behaviour by the airfield, which doesn’t even have a right to see the GAR – they are not authorised to receive confidential personal data, under the Data Protection Act. Another case (I was in a DA42 at the time) was an AFIS airfield which refused because they demanded PPR by phone. It was actually Duxford. When asked how is this to be done, they said “well, land at Cambridge and phone us!”. We politely told them to stick the PPR up where it is dark and warm and went elsewhere. That incident did the rounds of a well known UK “airport assassination” site and damaged their traffic (=££££) and they changed that policy.
Outside the UK, other examples… Padova (Italy) shafted me over well and truly just to make a point, Corfu shafted a number of aircraft over the years just to make the point also (very unusual for Greece to be unhelpful – unless you try something outside opening hours).
So one needs to be careful with this “PPR stuff”.
As shown above, “money talks”, and airfields will modify their policy if they lose a lot of money. But it can take years. And where the airport is taxpayer funded (whatever that means) it doesn’t have to care at all, so if e.g. a French airport lost GA traffic, they wouldn’t care. That’s why e.g. Dinard can wait a year before sending out the bill. And I don’t think Biggin makes much from light piston GA… so there are dangers. Most airports with significant bizjet or airliner traffic probably wouldn’t care.
A Mayday call (“low oil pressure” will do 
) will always get you in, but few pilots have the balls to do that, and I would expect questions to be asked, and in some places in southern-ish Europe you might get some police attention just to drive the point home.
Aviathor wrote:
It is not that long ago that the norwegian short field airports were off limits outside opening hours
This is only valid for Avinor fields. They used to be off limit outside opening hours. Last year they were open for VFR also outside opening hours, and this will continue. They are closed, so there is no service there and there is no PPR (no one to call). Since there is no service, they are also free of charge. You need to have a PPL (or better), a microlight or glider license will not do, and you have to apply for a special card. All flying is the pilots responsibility, also to check if the runway actually is usable (there could be work etc going on outside opening hours).
Many private fields in Switzerland have a PPR of sorts. And most of those fields are private, not public, which basically makes them questionable as infrastructure and leaves them much more open to attacks by the locals too.
And then most of the public ones have PPR in the form of Slots. Zürich, Geneva, Bern come to mind.
I agree with Adam and others here: PPR is a massive restriction to an infrastructure which severely restricts it´s use. And I can easily imagine the scenario Adam brought forward. Many people will not dare to land at an airport or airfield which they know has PPR (or assume as most of them do have it) for the fear of retribution. Of course this is stupid and not a sign of self confidence pilots should have, but at the same time it is also undesrstandable seeing that the general understanding with many people, especcially newbies, is that you are only allowed to fly by the grace of those airport kings and their benevolence. And as most airfields are private properties with PPR (at least in this country) there is more than a grain of truth in it, even though I´ve very rarely heard of real consequences of you land someplace without calling first.
There is one other bit: Some airfields (mis) use PPR to just force the pilots to call a number or visit a website where they will communicate wether the airport is available for use or not, e.g. Speck Fehraltdorf (Website) or Wangen-Lachen (Phone). Obviously, this should be done via NOTAM not via a PPR. But that is why many airfields use PPR as a CYA policy. If you land and the runway is soggy and you get a damage, they can refer to their PPR and the phone you are supposed to call.
