I would rather be reading this debate about diverting than reading an accident report about a TB20 which glided into the sea having run out of fuel after the whole of the south of England was enveloped in OVC001.
Anyway, we cannot be sure Justine would have picked Peter up from Shoreham beach and let him into the car with wet feet.
Peter wrote:
I could have told London Control I am switching briefly to call up Shoreham
Something I have done a few times is speaking on a frequency I am not ATC-active on, without advising ATC. Is there something wrong with the following conceptual exchange?
I could be flying in a certain area CAS or OCAS, even a certain FIR with ATC on COM1, listening after getting my last clearance.
IN the meantime I will switch to xmt on COM2 while still listening on COM1 and call say TWR (different airspace, maybe even different FIR) to get some data:
“Mahon TWR, NXXXX, I am currently still with MArseille , 50 NM SE of the field at FL150, inbound, can you confirm rwy in use at your field for our descent planning”
“NXXXX RWY in use at Mahon is 19”
“Copy Rwy 19 in use, now leaving the frequency, will call you back later when transferred from Marseille, Adios”
The worst that could happen is I get a call from Marseille during the few seconds of this exchange, which I then have to interrupt.
Yes I sometimes do this, effectively (briefly) working two frequencies at once. Nothing in the rules to prevent it as far as I’m aware – you have not left the original frequency so long as you do it with two COM radios. It would be hard to argue that it was ok if you only had one, because then you have left the frequency unannounced.
With London Control, you absolutely cannot leave them without telling them, even for seconds. If they call you, you get about 3 seconds to respond and if you don’t they will call you again. They are “hard men” (and women 
) One would have to tell them you are changing frequency for a moment.
Peter wrote:
At low level the burn is 11.7 USG/hr so I had over 2hrs, but flying an approach at Shoreham, then Lydd, then Biggin, then Southend, etc, quickly uses that up.
You rarely have hardcore conditions on both Biggin & Southend,
- If Southend is foggy, Biggin will be above it
- If Biggin is foggy, Southend is SVFR
If fog is tick 200ft-600ft amsl blanket you should get 500USG endurance (and Mrs approval)
In France it is standard practice to ask the ATS you are talking with for a change of frequency to get “le dernier” ( the latest). I suppose in English you might say "the latest information ".
Afterwards to announce you are back on frequency.
Handling 2 radios at the same time can be very difficult especially in an area as busy as London Control.
During my training I asked for a change of frequency to get an update and the controller said “you have 2 radios, why do you need to leave the frequency?” My instructor immediately responded “Yes, I do have 2 radios but only 1 pair of ears”. Change of frequency agreed
from a chastened controller.
gallois wrote:
During my training I asked for a change of frequency to get an update and the controller said “you have 2 radios, why do you need to leave the frequency?” My instructor immediately responded “Yes, I do have 2 radios but only 1 pair of ears”. Change of frequency agreed
from a chastened controller.
That’s pretty shocking. You’re single pilot, IFR in this case coming back from a (all is relative) long trip. These ‘’hard men and women’’ are part of an Air Traffic Control SERVICE, they are there to serve you and to expedite traffic. Part of that job (in fact the most important part globally) means getting you the shortest and safest route possible. I would have reminded them of their duty. The fact they are so uncooperative does really not reflect well on them (or on this particular controller if the incident is isolated) and their willingness to help improve the overall safety record.
I have never been refused to the latest weather by any service. And though I have had the occasional ‘’we don’t have weather radar’’, 99% of the time when you ask for clarification about weather, they will either call an aircraft or a station that can help out. There are people there who can pick up the phone as well to call Shoreham to check on the actual conditions and get back to you. Seems to me like something that would do just as much for improving overall safety as sending VFR pilots to the naughty school for busting CAS. You could have avoided a diversion.
To clarify I’m not arguing your decision making was wrong, I’m just shocked/disappointed by ATC behaviour effectively rendering your flight less secure.
London Control are very professional and, with the exception of stuff like this (which is not their problem anyway; it is institutional crap which all NATS/LTCC people are caught up in) I cannot fault them.
They are just very busy. Even Ryanair uses London Info to get weather
I had the Shoreham wx over the ADL150, right up to the minute, and told them so. What one could not IMHO ask them (or any other ATC unit) to do is phone up Shoreham for a conversational description of where the FEW001 is lying, and relay that to me. I can’t see any ATC unit doing that because it is totally nonstandard to pass on something like “well, the cloud is lying off the coast so you can get in fine right now”.
London Control is generally more busy than any of the Paris units, IME. I don’t have much of the sound track in my videos because I edit it out out of courtesy, but it is fast and pretty well nonstop. These days, CV19, a bit slower, but I would still not try it.
The only useful thing for this situation is to get visible satellite images, which show fog patches. But these (EUMETSAT, who own almost everything in Euro-land) are too low resolution.
Glad I am not doing that flight today:
gallois wrote:
Handling 2 radios at the same time can be very difficult especially in an area as busy as London Control
It’s no different than Paris TMA, it get hectics and you have to pick ATIS while talking to Paris Controllers (Orly/DeGaulle/Rouen)
London Control are bloody busy and have tight vectoring down to 3000ft and will not talk to Shoreham, they even don’t know the runway in-use there and will just drop you on SFD or DET or wait for your death by descente, you have plenty of time to call Shoreham !
The difference is Paris ATC know exatcly what is going on in every Paris GA IFR airports (even VFR airports), Orly controllers decide the runway in use at Toussus & Melun and know the local traffic & condition…
Peter wrote:
With London Control, you absolutely cannot leave them without telling them, even for seconds
How are you getting the ATIS then? Apart, can’t you talk on the 2nd set and listen in on them?
I am not meaning to criticize at all here just genuinely wondering. I guess a sat phone where you can actually call them while keeping the radio open would be a nice solution.
