Travel between Switzerland (and Norway?) and other Schengen countries, especially France

Exactly what I wrote earlier

That is no longer so in the case of Colmar. The NOTAM changed a while back and PN is required only for extra-Schengen flights. I called OPS to verify that a while back when helping @ aart planning a flight from Spain.

Such arrangements have existed in France but one needs to have a relationship with the staff in the tower Well, maybe not that kind of relationship, although that would probably be effective

However, the Shoreham to Pontoise scheduled service used to T&G at LFAT, so it had to be “official”.

Aviathor wrote:

So stay away from Auxerre and Limoges if you plan a flight crossing the borders of France, or comply with the NOTAM.

For example by doing a touch-and-go at some neighbouring airfield before you land at one of the two.

Jean wrote:

I have been flying to several french airports last year. I never minded about which one was Customs enabled or not. And never was bothered. I guess I can still freely fly in UE-SHENGEN zones whiteout PPR,PN. My last flight out of Belgium flight was to EDLW (thanks @Boscomantico) with just a FPL. I was not jailed.

And you are right. The general rule still is that intra-Schengen, intra-EU flights do not require any customs/immigration.

The exceptions are NOTAMed. Like this one:

E1109/17 NOTAM
Q) LFFF/FAXX/IV/NBO / A /000/999/4750N00329E
A) LFLA
B) 2017-04-08 15:59 C) 2017-07-31 23:59
E) CUSTOMS: FOR ANY FLIGHT CROSSING A BORDER : PPR CUSTOMS COMPULSORY
REFERS CHART AD2 LFLA TXT 02

There are very few of them (one less since Colmar went back to normal)

I would ask myself the question about this one too:

B8127/16 NOTAM
Q) LFBB/FALT/IV/NBO / A /000/999/4551N00110E
A) LFBL
B) 2016-12-19 10:08 C) 2017-07-31 23:59
E) NON SKED INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS: PPR 24HR TO AD MANAGER.

So I called AD OPS who confirm that intra-EU, intra-Schengen flights require 24 hrs prior notice (I asked specifically for a flight from Limoges to San Sebastian).

So stay away from Auxerre and Limoges if you plan a flight crossing the borders of France, or comply with the NOTAM.

All this seems very complicated.
When I was based in EBLG (EU-SHENGEN-EURO zones), 2 years ago, I could easily fly to UK, Switzerland and about anywhere in my reach.
I made a 2 hour flight to Lausanne (to say hello to @Flyingfish;-) in 2012. Now, I would either need to land in EBLG (10 minutes from EBST my home base) and pay around 150€ for landing, handling, etc., or make a stop in LFGJ or LFSP (with PN) before landing in LSGL. You can add at least 1 hour to the flight.
I have been flying to several french airports last year. I never minded about which one was Customs enabled or not. And never was bothered. I guess I can still freely fly in UE-SHENGEN zones whiteout PPR,PN. My last flight out of Belgium flight was to EDLW (thanks @Boscomantico) with just a FPL. I was not jailed.
When I read this thread, I wonder what is most difficult to be a pilot : get your flying licence or understand how you can fly from point A to point B.
I will soon be retired, I want to share my passion with my wife (who is not at all a GA flying addict), so I will soon review my missions: flying to remote, hard to drive to, non Ryanair airfields.

But I guess we are actually on the same page here…

I wasn’t suggesting that you can just ignore them! Just that for practical purposes it doesn’t matter all the much (most of the time) which one you actually need, as you don’t even need to specifiy which one you want. Follow the proceedures and you’ll the the appropriate service.

I think we are in danger of violently agreeing with one another

dublinpilot wrote:

However their course of action would be identical.

dublinpilot wrote:

In all three cases, they’d most likely be met by the very same people.

@dublinpilot: Absolutely! I think we can indeed agree that for practical purposes, in GA flying, the procedures will be the same.

What I (and others, I’d assume) were trying to say is that if you mix these two concepts up, you may run into a situation where you believe you’re save (i.e. “I’m within Schengen, so I don’t need to bother”) and then you end up with a massive problem and get fined be customs in the end. That’s why I (we?) had issues with the statement:

dublinpilot wrote:

Whether it customs or immigration doesn’t matter all that much.

But I guess we are actually on the same page here…

In my understanding in the original context “these facilities” mean immigration and customs. But you don’t need immigration, only customs for a FR<→CH flight.

Hi JnsV,

No, I meant whichever service is required. Obviously in this case it’s only Customs.

But what I meant about us dancing on the head of a pin, is that in practice it makes little difference. If the OP had decided to fly to an airport which offered customs and immigration facilities in France, they would have looked up the AIP and found the entry for Douanes/Police (no mention of immigration in French AIP!). There they would have found that they had to (assuming it was an airport of entry):

A) Do nothing so long as they arrived during certain hours, as customs & immigration are available during opening hours, or
B) Send details by Email/Fax or telephone directly to someone (often Customs or local chamber of commerce, or the airport authority), or
C) Contact ATC and advice of their flight in advance so that they can all the services.

This was for a pilot arriving from Switzerland to France, requiring customs only.

Now compare this to a pilot arriving into France from the UK or Ireland, where they are departing from inside the EU, but not inside the Schengen Zone. In this case the pilot needs the exact opposite. They need immigration, but not customs. However their course of action would be identical. They’d check the AIP and then make the exact same telephone call, fax or email.

Now compare this to a pilot arriving into France from the Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are outside the EU and outside the Schengen Zone, so they’d require both Customs & Immigration. Yet their course of action would be identical. They’d check the AIP and then make the same telephone call, fax or email.

In all three cases, they’d most likely be met by the very same people.

I’ve been met by customs/immigration/police on many occasions. But to date, I’ve never been met by two different agencies at the same time. One person does everything, and in every time that I can recall at present, it was a police officer (So not directly a customs or immigration officer!)

That’s what I mean about not needing to get too caught up on the details. In the end, in most cases, the actions are the same, whether it’s customs or immigration, or both, that you need.

I’d also go further to say that in most cases, unless you’re already familiar with the systems for that country, you should check with the airport. There are exceptions to all these. For example coming from the EU, to Ireland, the only people you need to inform are Customs and immigration have no routine notification for General Aviation. The complete opposite of what you’d expect (where you’d expect no customs checks, just immigration).

Rwy20 wrote:

be careful when it comes to respecting customs procedures between EU and non-EU countries.

And I would add between Schengen and non-Schengen countries as well. Bear in mind that there are EU countries that are not in Schengen. Croatia springs to mind although I think they are due to enter Schengen soon. The UK too, but they will soon no longer be in the EU either. You really need to know your political geography.

Rwy20 wrote:

If I see a NOTAM, that details to me what I have to do for such a border check, I will do it, but otherwise I will just file a flight plan and move freely between two EU and Schengen states. How are we supposed to know otherwise?

I completely agree. NOTAM and AIP are indeed the sources that are offered to us as pilots. We stick to them – we should be OK. Anything else is hearsay.