Syndicate : PA28RT or M20K231 ? Prebuy ?

PapaPapa wrote:

And I don’t want to say maintenance should be cheap, but they seem to be expensive and the only justification I can see is that they’re “on site” and so is the majority of their customers.

Why not just ask other customers as well, and feel if they think the price is ok or not? Or ask the shop, that you have the feeling that they are expensive, they might be able to explain. Ask the current owner to review the invoices again, and see how detailed they are, and compare these with the work report?

For the prop example, did they change anything on the prop? Could it be that some parts where scrap / beyond overhaul limits and needed to be renewed, did they change to another overhauled prop (different P/N requiring certification paperwork)? This information should be available in the technicall and financial administration.

I think those that say they are to expensive or even rip you of couldn’t say so, based on the information provided. They might be to expensive, but the only way to tell is to check this for yourself into more detail.

achimha wrote:

The customer can still determine when service is due. The maintenance required is then determined automatically by the software of the CAMO, this takes a minute. They all have some software package that includes all bulletins, ADs, etc. I was never charged extra for that, it’s part of the standard annual fee.

Sure, but this software and the licenses for all manuals don’t come for free, so you will pay one way or the other for this. At some companies this included, others charge it separate.

Peter wrote:

€6000 for a prop overhaul is really top money – it’s about 50% over the top of a top grade reputable firm. But the €2000 paperwork fee? On a prop overhaul??

Is that a 2 blade or 3 ?
Does it include new de-ice boots ?
How ’bout remove/install labour & transport to the prop shop ?
VAT included ?

About the only way you might justify €6K for a typical GA prop overhaul is “worst case” scenario on ALL of the above, otherwis, a complete rip-off .

But I wrote it because I know it is one of Peter’s “marottes” (french ) and therefore state that I was interested in shop maintenance for now

The thing to do is ask for a breakdown. That cost is very high. The UK cost is about GBP 3500 for a Hartzell 3B prop, plus VAT. And that’s by a top grade shop and is the same for EASA-reg and N-reg aircraft.

But maybe there was an “issue” which had to be resolved. Maybe it was discovered that somebody installed a prop which was very slightly different to the one on the type certificate, and the firm had to do tons of paperwork to apply for a mod.

The problem is that you have to ask – what else is like that?

Anyway, you asked for views so you are getting some I’ve been an aircraft owner for 13 years… otherwise, yeah, they are worth what you are paying for them.

€6000 for a prop overhaul is really top money – it’s about 50% over the top of a top grade reputable firm. But the €2000 paperwork fee? On a prop overhaul??

Jesse wrote:

It seems they are the CAMO for this aircraft, which also brings responsibility to them for the paperwork, making sure all times are kept etc. You don’t have to be under CAMO control if you don’t want to. You can also do the technicall administration yourself, quite some people think this is an easy job. To do this correct you should be able to access all manuals, to check if all maintenance is done correctly and according the current manuals. You would need to have access to maintenance data, such as manuals, not only from the aircraft, but also engine and compenents and keep this current. This cost money as well.

In Germany it standard to get the ARC from a CAMO (the alternative is the CAA but that is a rarely used road). However, that doesn’t mean the airplane is under CAMO control with operating time recording keeping etc. The customer can still determine when service is due. The maintenance required is then determined automatically by the software of the CAMO, this takes a minute. They all have some software package that includes all bulletins, ADs, etc. I was never charged extra for that, it’s part of the standard annual fee.

IMHO, any company that does this is hardly going to be trusted to do the actual maintenance properly

I think you can say anything like that, without any evidendance. I have been called outrages expensive, must be non detailed invoice’s / quote etc on the this forum, while it was untrue, and customer was happy with price level AND service. Maybe they do things right, like lubrication with dissassembly with the correct lubrication.
As example, once in a while I get customers which initially said I was far to expensive, have had done some work elsewhere, especially on RF equipment, back in to ask if I could correct the installation, which is often far more expensive then having the job done right at once.
Shops which are expensive are not always expensive without reason.

PapaPapa wrote:

What I found of interest is that their seems to be a lot of paperwork/admin costs from the local outfit (which is part 145 and made their “maintenance manual” and had it approved by the CAA – and put their own name in it as the maintenance shop).

Their is quite some paperwork to be done. Quite some aircraft are missing paperwork as well. Just have a look at the paperwork, and request why they charge these costs. It seems they are the CAMO for this aircraft, which also brings responsibility to them for the paperwork, making sure all times are kept etc. You don’t have to be under CAMO control if you don’t want to. You can also do the technicall administration yourself, quite some people think this is an easy job. To do this correct you should be able to access all manuals, to check if all maintenance is done correctly and according the current manuals. You would need to have access to maintenance data, such as manuals, not only from the aircraft, but also engine and compenents and keep this current. This cost money as well. Then it is your responsibility to check all data and that correct manuals are being used. So it can be done yourself, only for the right person with interest in doing so, and must be prepaired to pay for manuals etc.

PapaPapa wrote:

Ok, I know owner-assisted or owner-own maintenance is he cheapest but here I am more interested in experience with shops because for the beginning I will not do it myself

If this is actually cheaper will also be based on your skills. It is not for those who don’t have a technical view, then it can be more expensive by ruining equipment. You will known your own skills, so decide if this is something for you. It can also be more expensive because they need to educate you on how things work. Educating while working always cost more time. You do benefit from this however, as you can get a better understanding on systems etc.

Sometimes people find avionics and pitot static testing expensive. I always welcome them to have a look when doing these test. Typically it takes about half an hour extra to explain all steps in the testing procedure, while we do the testing. Most people are impressed and can see / understand why the costs are build up as they are.

If you don’t understand why an invoice or quotation is high, just ask, it is in any shops interest to inform you well, such that you will remain a happy customer.

prop OH : about 6k but with >2k of administrative/paper work

They are being totally taken to the cleaners.

IMHO, any company that does this is hardly going to be trusted to do the actual maintenance properly.

Those admin costs seem high. While I have been billed for CAA fees have never had an admin bill!