The price for the 100h inspection with annual is waayyy to high. It should be around 3000€ as Peter stated above.
Don’t bother too much about the temperatures. I do have the GB engine in my 231 which has a reputation for running hot. If the fuel system is set up correctly (very important!) and flown LOP the temperatures are very manageable. I always fly below 400 degrees in full power climb and below 380 in cruise.
I also don’t understand the reputation about beeing cramped. The only difficulty (until you get used to it) is getting in and out. Once seated you will be surprised how comfortable it actually is. It all depends on which seat arrangement you prefer. The more flat seating with the possibilty to stretch your legs completely (glider pilots will love it) or the more upright seating as in most other planes ( forget the leg stretching).
Sir_Percy wrote:
The price for the 100h inspection with annual is waayyy to high. It should be around 3000€ as Peter stated above.
Thanks, this is yearly maintenance (including but not limited to 50h + 100h with annual) not just the 100H with inspection 
Bus there is still an agreement that this is too high
Wow, 17k for a 231??? That is outrageous.
Ok, that is a turbo airplane with all the implications that has, but heavens, a plane like that should be maintainable for less than 10k and that is generous. Of course there can be problems which then will require extra funds, but 17 k is totally over the top.
At the time, I did a comparison between the Arrow II and a Mooney C, the C Model came out almost 30% cheaper in annual maintenance than the Arrow. That is why I let a very good Arrow go and bought the C-Model.
The only thing I could imagine is if they have Cylinder problems on the first generation engine and need to do top overhauls almot every year, but that would mean other implications.
While I would certainly tend towards the 231 vs a Turbo Arrow, this one seems to have a number of question marks which I would need answers were it for me.
Well, 17K does sound rich. I don’t keep a spreadsheet or anything tho. And there are years that 17k doesn’t cover it… This year for instance, but then the o2 bottle needed replacement, some mild work on cilinder no 3 was required and a host of other little nigles needed doing. It all adds up realy fast.
Mind you, I don’t even inflate the tires or change a bulb myself.
Thanks all for the valuable input.
I have to make calculations to see what is the level of “regular” maintenance I can handle. 17k once in a while is doable (and has to be for the prop or engine) but not every year.
My changing jobs did not do any good to my ownership cravings
PapaPapa wrote:
17k once in a while is doable (and has to be for the prop or engine) but not every year.
I just checked my stats. The average for the annual/50 hr checks over the last years was around 7 k CHF, even including non scheduled maintenance during the year. Not included are extraordinary items like a prop overhaul (3k) last year. Now that is for an o-360 driven C in a high cost country like Switzerland. I would expect the 231 to be a tad more due to the engine and systems (electrical gear and flaps) but if you calculate 8-10k Euros into the budget I would think that is way conservative.
17k is disastrous and I can not imagine what caused such a cost on a regular basis.
Ok, I got to fly the plane and discuss more in detail what the maintenance costs are.
It seems less worrisome than what he actually said :
- They closed their year in August with 18k which includes the prop overhaul.
- The year before that was 10k which included prop gov. OH (beats me why they did not do both at the same time)
So after all may not be that bad…
What I found of interest is that their seems to be a lot of paperwork/admin costs from the local outfit (which is part 145 and made their “maintenance manual” and had it approved by the CAA – and put their own name in it as the maintenance shop).
For ex:
- prop OH : about 6k but with >2k of administrative/paper work (all without VAT)
- CoA renewal : CAA 400 EUR + >900 EUR of admin/paper work
Ok, I know owner-assisted or owner-own maintenance is he cheapest but here I am more interested in experience with shops because for the beginning I will not do it myself.
So are these “admin” costs usually applied ? are they ususally that high ?
Those admin costs seem high. While I have been billed for CAA fees have never had an admin bill!
prop OH : about 6k but with >2k of administrative/paper work
They are being totally taken to the cleaners.
IMHO, any company that does this is hardly going to be trusted to do the actual maintenance properly.
IMHO, any company that does this is hardly going to be trusted to do the actual maintenance properly
I think you can say anything like that, without any evidendance. I have been called outrages expensive, must be non detailed invoice’s / quote etc on the this forum, while it was untrue, and customer was happy with price level AND service. Maybe they do things right, like lubrication with dissassembly with the correct lubrication.
As example, once in a while I get customers which initially said I was far to expensive, have had done some work elsewhere, especially on RF equipment, back in to ask if I could correct the installation, which is often far more expensive then having the job done right at once.
Shops which are expensive are not always expensive without reason.
PapaPapa wrote:
What I found of interest is that their seems to be a lot of paperwork/admin costs from the local outfit (which is part 145 and made their “maintenance manual” and had it approved by the CAA – and put their own name in it as the maintenance shop).
Their is quite some paperwork to be done. Quite some aircraft are missing paperwork as well. Just have a look at the paperwork, and request why they charge these costs. It seems they are the CAMO for this aircraft, which also brings responsibility to them for the paperwork, making sure all times are kept etc. You don’t have to be under CAMO control if you don’t want to. You can also do the technicall administration yourself, quite some people think this is an easy job. To do this correct you should be able to access all manuals, to check if all maintenance is done correctly and according the current manuals. You would need to have access to maintenance data, such as manuals, not only from the aircraft, but also engine and compenents and keep this current. This cost money as well. Then it is your responsibility to check all data and that correct manuals are being used. So it can be done yourself, only for the right person with interest in doing so, and must be prepaired to pay for manuals etc.
PapaPapa wrote:
Ok, I know owner-assisted or owner-own maintenance is he cheapest but here I am more interested in experience with shops because for the beginning I will not do it myself
If this is actually cheaper will also be based on your skills. It is not for those who don’t have a technical view, then it can be more expensive by ruining equipment. You will known your own skills, so decide if this is something for you. It can also be more expensive because they need to educate you on how things work. Educating while working always cost more time. You do benefit from this however, as you can get a better understanding on systems etc.
Sometimes people find avionics and pitot static testing expensive. I always welcome them to have a look when doing these test. Typically it takes about half an hour extra to explain all steps in the testing procedure, while we do the testing. Most people are impressed and can see / understand why the costs are build up as they are.
If you don’t understand why an invoice or quotation is high, just ask, it is in any shops interest to inform you well, such that you will remain a happy customer.
