Flyer59 wrote:
I once had a guy for a BFR who would fly + 45 degree banks into final … and not even coordinated. I warned him a couple of times to stop that, but two years later when we flew again … same thing.
I’d hope you failed him.
The German BFR was always called “training flight” (changed now) and it was never meant to be a checkflight. Actually the FIs and CRIs were neber really told what to do when a pilot performed badly. I haved never head (anyone else?) that a BFR was not signed by an instructor/CRI … but sometimes it was really close that I refused. In the end you know they’re responsible for themselves, and they did pass the initial checkride …
The really bad ones I still remember were the guy whi refused to show me an approach stall in 5000 ft AGL (in a 172) and the other one who did not want to make a steep turn (“i never had to do that before”). So i showed them and we practiced a little but it was clear that they were bith scared. I think these guys should not fly with passengers, … but who am I.
Then I had a young guy, probably reading here :-), who had only 150 hrs or so and was nervous first, and when we landed I asked him if he’d maybe have time to give me some instruction :-) He flew, well, just perfect. Radio, airwork, procedures … I had about 1000 h then, but he flew just as well. Real talent.
Jacko wrote:
Is there any consensus here on EGA that the energy management turn, aka crop-duster or ground attack turn, should be learnt well before first solo
Isn’t it considered an aerobatic manoeuvre (wingover)?
A_A that is the point which I think the video explains quite well.
When you are taught co ordinated flight it is typically at 2,000’ AGL with you focusing on the horizon, the ball and the altimeter – all while having a good look out into the turn. The instructor may or may not have demonstrated adverse yaw, and the need for rudder, and possibly may have just taught the use of some rudder in the turn. Ideally demonstrating adverse yaw at different angles of attack/speed should be part of the lesson, but few instructors in my experience do this. So rudder is taught as part of the recipe of turning, and not a control to manage adverse yaw in a turn. Many training aircraft may hardly need rudder in a turn, say to the left, due to slipstream effect.
On a base to final turn you are low level with potentially different visual cues to your turning exercises height, especially with a tail wind component on base. The rudder is a strong control in training aircraft and the poor student may ‘naturally’ try and rudder the aircraft around due to the visual cues, trying to restore the visual cues he had in a level turn at altitude.
Teaching only 20 degree banks from base to final and using gentle s-turns to re acquire the centre line is common sense, as flyer59 pointed out. Recall the poor instructor has a duty of care to ensure his student returns on solo exercises unharmed, hence teaching a safe manoeuvring envelope with lots of margin of safety. The services have the ability to wash out students and have more intensive, and longer, basic training.
Perhaps we need aircraft with pronounced adverse yaw to properly teach use of rudder, like the old training taildraggers.
Flyer59 wrote:
The German BFR was always called “training flight” (changed now) and it was never meant to be a checkflight.
I have BFR associated with FAA (these days it should be, IIRC, just flight review) and FAA licensed instructors are not that uncommon in the EU so I assumed you meant that.
RobertL18C wrote:
Perhaps we need aircraft with pronounced adverse yaw to properly teach use of rudder
Yes, this is one of the arguments for using taildraggers for basic training. You can feel the adverse yaw more and flying coordinated should become natural.
I learned how to fly in a tail dragger with a honest but less than forgiving nature. If you have the right instructor I think you learn a lot that you’d probably be unaware of otherwise, and it doesn’t leave you. On the other hand if your instructor were inadequate the chances of something bad happening would be pretty high, with base to final being one of the issues. It takes a great deal more attention and care to fly many 1930s design aircraft than a trainer designed later on. In a ideal world you could do 25 hrs in something like a Luscombe, then move on to something like a 172 or Tecnam 2002, depending on goals etc. But I think a fraction of students would get frustrated or scared early in that process, and quit. The world is a very forgiving place today, and many people are not prepared for anything that isn’t forgiving.
I can’t see what a taildragger configuration has to do with adverse yaw?
If you want to learn to use coordinated controls then try gliding! Due to the large wingspan nearly all gliders will demonstrate a fair degree of adverse yaw and require coordinated controls; really good experience. The stall/spin danger really comes in when people leave rudder applied beyond that required to remain in balance, as opposed to using in when rolling into / out of the turn to coordinate.
The historical correlation between adverse yaw and tailwheel aircraft is because nose wheel landing gear was developed in parallel with improved ailerons. Also because old aircraft need to be able to fly uncoordinated with ease (because they ground loop unless aligned with the runway in a cross wind, and lacking flaps they are slipped to land).
The sailplanes I’ve flown had plenty of adverse yaw and I think would train a pilot very well to use the rudder. They also had lots of washout (or flew like it) and didn’t seem to spin unintentionally out of uncoordinated flight.
Silvaire wrote:
The sailplanes I’ve flown had plenty of adverse yaw and I think would train a pilot very well to use the rudder. They also had lots of washout (or flew like it) and didn’t seem to spin unintentionally out of uncoordinated flight.
The amount of washout on gliders depends on their age and whether they are training or cross-country machine. Also on a few type the designer got it wrong and the wash-out is increased after some serial number.
Gliders do spin intentionally and unintentionally. We loose pilots to low, slow, over-ruddered final turns (at airfield or field landing). Some glider lack the elevator authority to get it to spin intentionally. But that doesn’t mean that they won’t if luck is against you.
