Integrated ATPL courses (and their thinness....)

Airborne_Again wrote:

In Sweden you can actually get a MPL “for free” as a university programme

I’ve heard of this program, exactly what I mean.
Unfortunately it’s the exception.

I do believe the current „system“ has many flaws and could be improved in many ways. However, nobody cares because the companies want easy profit, the general public wants cheap tickets, the politicians want cheap votes and almost no accidents happen anyway.
It’s a very broad topic, too much for an online forum.

Don’t they have the MEP or IR rating to take? MEP needs 70hrs PIC XC before the skill check I think.

greg_mp wrote:

Don’t they have the MEP or IR rating to take? MEP needs 70hrs PIC XC before the skill check I think.

Not if they’re on a MPL course. (That’s explicit in part-FCL.)

I completed an ATPL course a few years ago as part of an airline scheme. I had 220 hours when I started split between gliding and power flying. The ATPL course added about 150 hours. Yes, it’s not a lot of hours, and most of my colleagues on the course had no previous experience.

If we were going on to fly a DC-3 then I’d agree the course is insufficient. But we don’t fly the DC-3. The flight training on the course allows one to pass the MEP/IR. Nothing more, nothing less. About 120 hours is just enough to manage with an old piston twin in a carefully structured environment. There is no need for a lot of solo time as single pilot flying (hopefully) just won’t be a part of an airline career.

Once the IR is complete you head into a jet simulator for about 40 hours to complete multi crew and jet orientation. Then you spend another 40 hours in a simulator on the type rating and many more hours in various training devices.

You’ve now spent as long on a transport type aircraft simulator as you did on single engine. You’ve learned that flap speeds are really important, you’ve learned that all that time learning to fly straight and level under instrument conditions can normally be done with a button press. You’ve learned that managing energy is of paramount importance. You’ve forgotten everything the PPL instructor ever said about holding off the landing until the stall warner goes off. You’ve controlled the urge to do everything quickly, managing workload becomes important. She’ll still climb well, even out of trim, one engine out with the flaps out. You’ve forgotten how to fly a perfect holding pattern, because if the automation fails and you end up completely manual and single pilot there’s no bonus for style points.

Then you get to the airline and they spend a lot of money allowing you to hustle a big jet visually around the circuit. It is familiar, yet totally different. The airline then knows you can land the thing, so you can fly with passengers. The first few trips have a safety pilot as the training captain will be working hard. Once they know that in the worst case, you can get the aircraft to a sensible airport and land it safely all by yourself, you don’t need a safety pilot. After lots more flying, they know you don’t need a training captain any more.

Then you spend years flying as a first officer, learning the ins and outs of line flying from the regular line captains. It bears virtually no resemblance to meandering across rural England with a stopwatch and a rough heading gleaned from a CRP-5 looking for church spire next to a bend in the river while you work out what the multi coloured lines and arrows you were told to draw on the VFR chart are actually for.

Finally, after you’ve acquired a lot of experience and airmanship the airline decide you don’t need a captain anymore, and some of your knowledge may be useful to new first officers. Even then, you need that new first officer to look after you too. It’s always a team effort.

As other have said, I don’t think 300 or 1500 SEP hours would make much difference for conversion to a modern jet transport. In extreme cases it could even be counter productive.

But you do risk ending up with people who can’t really fly an aeroplane from first principles and risk stoofing it into the ground when the automation gives up (AF447). The airline SOPs relating to autopilot use do not help here.

Along with the manual flying skills, the other area that concerns me is lack of overall responsibility. It looks like one of these guys or gals could get to many thousands of hours in their logbook with almost none of it as PIC. That can hardly do much to impresses on them a sense of the buck stops here.

I am sure the integrated courses give the airlines exactly what they want – after all they help design them. It doesn’t necessarily follow that it produces the best pilots. There are strengths and weaknesses with any system.

Well at least the first 1500 will not be PIC of a multi crew aircraft, and as far as “the buck stops here” to be quite honest, in my opinion it doesn’t. They are second in command.

Now, having said that, the majority of FOs will, if given the opportunity take on as much of the PIC role on their sectors as the Captain supports. Some Captains are better than others at that, but even a 500 hour FO, on a good day will run their sectors as the effective Pilot in Command.

The AF447 thing has been done to death. As part of my training I went though a significant upset recovery package in an Extra 300, yet it still seems to be trained really badly at PPL level.

No system needs to produce “the best pilots”. The system should produce pilots for the role intended. No point in training an Alaskan bush pilot when one needs an airline driver, and an airline school shouldn’t try produce safari pilots. As long as everybody knows their own limitations.

Graham wrote:

But you do risk ending up with people who can’t really fly an aeroplane from first principles and risk stoofing it into the ground when the automation gives up (AF447). The airline SOPs relating to autopilot use do not help here.

If after 10K hours you still can’t fly the plane maybe it’s time to think of another career no? AF crew seems to have been pretty experienced? sorry can’t seem to get editing right probably better to click the link to the BEA report…https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp090601.en.pdf

1.5.1 Flight crew
1.5.1.1 Captain
Male, aged 58
ˆ Medical certificate (class 1) issued on 10 October 2008, valid until 31 October 2009
Injuries
Crew Members
Passengers
Others
Fatal
12
216
-
Serious
-
-
-
Light/none
-
-
-
24
F-GZCP – 1st June 2009

ˆ Experience:
y total: 10,988 flying hours, of which 6,258 as Captain
y hours on type: 1,747 all as Captain
y in the previous six months: 346 hours, 18 landings, 15 take-offs y in the previous three months: 168 hours, 8 landings, 6 take-offs y in the previous 30 days: 57 hours, 3 landings, 2 take-offs
The Captain had carried out sixteen rotations in the South America sector since he arrived in the A330/A340 division in 2007. His Oceanic route qualification was valid until 31 May 2010.
1.5.1.1.1 Aviation career details
ˆ Private Pilot’s License issued in 1974
ˆ Flight attendant from February 1976 to June 1982 (Air France)
ˆ Commercial Pilot’s License issued in 1977. Practical test taken on a Cessna 177
after training at the training centre of the Technical Control and Training Service of the French civil aviation directorate (Direction Générale de l’Aviation Civile) in Grenoble. Instrument rating (IFR) issued in 1978 (on a PA30).
ˆ Private flight instructor qualification obtained in 1979
ˆ 1st class professional pilot theory in 1979
ˆ Airline transport pilot theory in 1980
ˆ Mountain rating (altiport category) issued in 1981
ˆ 1st class professional Pilot’s License issued in 1982. Tests taken on a Nord 262 after training at the Technical Control and Training Service centre of the French civil aviation directorate (Direction Générale de l’Aviation Civile) in Saint-Yan
ˆ Demonstration pilot from January to March 1983 (Inter Avia Service Company)
ˆ Pilot from June 1983 to August 1984 for various companies
ˆ Several other type ratings obtained between 1977 and 1987:
y C177 (1977), C310 (1977), C401 / C402 (1982), C421 (1983)
y PA23 (1978), PA30 (1979), PA34 (1980), PA31 (1984)
y BE65 (1981), BE 55/58 (1982), BE60 (1983), BE20 (1987), BE90 and BE10 (1987) y BN2A (1981)
y N262 (1982)
y MU2 (1983)
ˆ Independent pilot from October 1984 to February 1988
ˆ Joins Air Inter airline in February 1988 as copilot
ˆ Caravelle XII type rating in 1988
ˆ A300 type rating in 1990 (within Air Inter)
ˆ Airline pilot training course from 12 August 1991 to 15 January 1992 (within Air Inter)
ˆ ATPL License without limitations issued 19 February 1992
ˆ 1st class professional pilot instructor (IPP1) rating issued in 1993
ˆ A320 type rating issued on 13 March 1997 (within Air Inter). Line training
completed and pilot in command for first time on 3 April 1997 Note: The merger between Air France and Air Inter took place on 1 April 1997
F-GZCP – 1st June 2009
25

26
ˆ Boeing 737-200 type rating (within Air France), end of line training and appointed Captain on 19 June 1998
ˆ New A320 type rating issued 29 May 2001 (within Air France)
ˆ Additional A330 type rating issued 27 October 2006 (within Air France). Unfit after line training test flight 17 January 2007, extended A330 line training and
satisfactory test on 17 February 2007
ˆ Additional A340 type rating issued 9 August 2007 (within Air France). Line training
completed and pilot in command for first time on 7 September 2007
ˆ Last medical certificate (class 1) issued on 10 October 2008, valid until
31 October 2009
ˆ 2008/2009 and 2009/2010 ECP instruction seasons:
y A330 (CEL33) line check on 15 February 2007 y A340 (CEL34) line check on 7 September 2007 y A330 (E33) training on 12 March 2008
y A340 (CEL34) line check on 21 July 2008
y 4S ground training on 7 August 2008
y A340 (E34) training on 11 October 2008
y A330 (C33) base check on 12 October 2008 y S1 ground training on 12 January 2009
y A330 (E33) training on 22 April 2009
y A340 (C34) base check on 23 April 2009
1.5.1.1.2 Training courses and specific training
h Unreliable IAS
ˆ FFS session n°1 (Air Inter A320 type rating) on 24 February 1997 “vol avec IAS douteuse”. This session also included a “Study of high altitude flight (35,000 ft)” exercise
ˆ 2008-2009 instruction season E33 training on simulator. “IAS douteuse” exercise Note: The A320 type rating programme at Air France in 2001 did not include a “vol avec IAS
douteuse” exercise.
h Stall
ˆ A300 type rating (Air Inter): FFS session n°3 “level flight (FL 330) – stall”
ˆ A320 type rating (Air Inter): FFS session n°1 “study of stall and recovery of the
trajectory
ˆ A320typerating(AirFrance):FSSsessionn°7,exerciseon“lowspeeddemonstration
in direct law and recuperation after a STALL alarm”. The stall procedure in force was that from December 1999
h Unusual attitudes
ˆ Additional A330 type rating: computer assisted self-learning module “Unusual
attitudes – Use of the rudder” completed on 28 September 2006
h Piloting in alternate law
ˆ A320 type rating (Air France): FFS session n°4 “flying in alternate law and direct law”
F-GZCP – 1st June 2009

1.5.1.2 Co-pilot in left seat
Male, aged 37
ˆ Medical certificate (class 1) issued 11 December 2008, valid until 31 December 2009 with compulsory wearing of corrective lenses.
ˆ Experience:
y total: 6,547 flying hours
y on type: 4,479 flying hours
y in the previous six months: 204 hours, 9 landings, 11 take-offs y in the previous three months: 99 hours, 6 landings, 5 take-offs y in the previous thirty days: 39 hours, 2 landings, 2 take-offs
ˆ May 2009 activity at the OCC:
y 12 May from 6 h to 16 h
y 13 May 16 h to 14 May 6 h
y 17 May from 6 h to 16 h
y 18 May 16 h to 19 May 6 h
y from 20 May 8 h to 22 May 17 h
Before the outward flight, his last landing on an A330 dated from 9 March 2009. He had flown the outward Paris-Rio flight as PF to gain the recent experience required to keep his dual A330/A340 rating up-to-date.
This pilot had performed 39 rotations on the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2002. His Oceanic route qualification was valid until 28 February 2010.
1.5.1.2.1 Aviation career details
ˆ Basic license issued in 1992
ˆ Airline pilot theory in 1992
ˆ Professional Pilot’s License in 1993 (EPT ENAC) ˆ Multi-engine instrument rating issued in 1993
Note: In the context of economic crisis in air transport, in autumn 1992 Air France stopped pilot training courses and drew up a waiting list in 1993.
ˆ Training as Air Traffic Control Engineer at ENAC until 1998. In August 1997, request to delay joining Air France in order to finish this training
ˆ Fit for starting type rating training at Air France in July 1998
ˆ Training in Multi Crew Co-ordination (MCC) in August 1998 by the Air France TRTO
ˆ A320 type rating issued in November 1998 (within Air France). End of LOFT and
pilot in command for first time 14 February 1999
ˆ Air transport airline pilot’s license issued in April 2001
ˆ Additional A340 type rating in February 2002 (within Air France). End of line
training and pilot in command for first time in April 2002
ˆ Additional A330 type rating and line training in October 2002
ˆ Assigned to Air Calédonie Internationale airline for two months in 2005 to carry
out flights on A330 on the Tokyo – Nouméa route
ˆ Renewal of SEP rating on TB10 in Nouméa in 2005
F-GZCP – 1st June 2009
27

ˆ He was appointed (as) cadre at the Technical Flight Crew Division as representative of the Flight Deck Crew hub at the CCO from 1st May 2008
ˆ 2008/2009 and 2009/2010 ECP instruction seasons:
y CEL34 line check 30 October 2007 y E34 training 22 July 2008
y C33 base check 23 July 2008
y CEL33 line check 26 October 2008 y E33 training 6 December 2008
y 4S ground training 10 December 2008
y C34 base flight check 21 December 2008 y S1 ground training 18 March 2009
1.5.1.2.2 Training courses and specific training
h Unreliable IAS
ˆ 2008-2009 instruction season E33 simulator training. “IAS douteuse” exercise
Note: The A320 type rating programme at Air France in 1998 did not include a “vol avec IAS douteuse” exercise.
h Stall
ˆ A320 type rating: FFS session n°4: “piloting in degraded law (effect of buffeting)
in alternate law”
1.5.1.3 Copilot in right seat
Male, aged 32
ˆ Medical certificate (class 1) issued on 24 October 2008, valid until 31 October 2009 with compulsory wearing of corrective lenses.
ˆ Experience:
y total: 2,936 flying hours
y on type: 807 flying hours
y in the previous six months: 368 hours, 16 landings, 18 take-offs y in the previous three months: 191 hours, 7 landings, 8 take-offs y in the previous thirty days: 61 hours, 1 landing, 2 take-offs
This pilot had performed five rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2008, including one to Rio de Janeiro. His Oceanic route qualification was valid until 31 May 2010.
1.5.1.3.1 Aviation career details
ˆ Private Pilot’s License issued in 2000
ˆ ATPL theory in 2000
ˆ Professional pilot’s license issued in 2001
ˆ Multi-engine instrument type rating issued in 2001
ˆ Glider pilot’s license issued in 2001
ˆ Following his selection by Air France, pilot training course at the Amaury de la
Grange flying school in Merville from October 2003
28
F-GZCP – 1st June 2009

ˆ A320 type rating issued in 2004 (within Air France). End of line training and pilot in command for first time in September 2004
ˆ ATPL License issued on 3 August 2007
ˆ Additional A340 type rating issued in February 2008 (with Air France). End of
LOFT and pilot in command for first time in June 2008
ˆ Additional A330 type rating and line training in December 2008
ˆ 2008/2009 ECP instruction season:
y 4S ground training on 15 January 2009
y E33 training on 2 February 2009
y C34 base flight check on 3 February 2009
Note: The validity of the E34, C33, CEL34, CEL33, S1 training courses, checks and ground training is covered by the dates of issue of the Airbus A330 and A340 type rating as well as by the end of line training date.
1.5.1.3.2 Training courses and specific training
h Unreliable IAS
ˆ 2008-2009 instruction season E33 simulator training. “IAS douteuse” exercise
Note: The A320 type rating programme at Air France in 2004 did not include a “vol avec IAS douteuse” exercise.
h Stall
ˆ A320 type rating: FFS session n°4: “piloting in degraded law (effect of buffeting) in alternate law”
ˆ A320 type rating: FFS session n°7: “Preventive recognition and countermeasures to approach to stall. DEMONSTRATION STALL WARNING”. The STALL procedure in force was that from December 1999
General note: The additional A330 and A340 type ratings deal only with the differences in relation to the type ratings already issued on other types (A320, A330, and A340).