Airborne_Again wrote:
In my experience it is quite clear that ATC expects me to get start-up permission before starting the engine.
What I wrote above is not specific to the airport I work. In France it’s almost always like that (I can’t think of one airport in France you need engine start-up permission from ATC when the aircraft is on the apron).
Just like Aviathor wrote, apron management is not the same everywhere. It’s quite possible that where you flew, you needed permission from ATC.
JasonC wrote:
But no one except the pilot checks it is safe to start the engine.
I think it was one of the first thing I learnt when I started flying a SEP (there was obviously no handling at this airport).
I did some push-back with the Air France ground staff at my airport. The aircraft crew always asked to the guy who was connected to the aircraft if they could start the engines.
That day, during a Boeing 777-300ER (known for it’s powerful jetblast) push-back , the ground staff denied start-up to the crew as an ATR was parked behind. When the Boeing was clear of the ATR, the ground staff cleared the aircraft to start the engines.
At Schipol you get clearance and start approval from CLNC, then go to the ramp (KLM) to get taxi permission (within the ramp). The GND before entering a taxiway. It is clearly done to ensure sequencing so they don’t have a lot of aircraft taxiing to the hold well ahead of their CTOT.
But no one except the pilot checks it is safe to start the engine.
Aviathor wrote:
The first one applies to all IFR traffic in Europe
It doesn’t. In Sweden start-up permission is not generally required, although it is generally recommended for turbine aircraft. This is explicit from the AIP.
Guillaume wrote:
When an aircraft ask us to start up the engine, we ask him to check the safety arround the aircraft with the ground crew. We do not give engine start-up clearance ourselves on the apron . It’s not our responsibility. We do not even see most of the apron from the tower. When an aircraft wants to start it’s engine independently from a regular flight, we ask him to phone the airport manager.
That is different from every airport I’ve been to where a start-up permission has been required. In my experience it is quite clear that ATC expects me to get start-up permission before starting the engine. In one case, where the Jepp info didn’t say that start-up clearance was required, the tower complained about my “unauthorised” start-up when I called for taxi. And that was in a SEP.
If I try rephrasing what @Guillaume wrote since his first post, there are potentially two distinct startup clearances:
The first one applies to all IFR traffic in Europe, is delivered by ATC and is for making sure the FPL is available, accepted, flow control, sequencing etc. The second one depends on the facility – at large airports it is delivered by ramp control or ground crew, but at some airports may be delivered by ground control.
BackPacker wrote:
At my local airport, we can start the engine and even taxi around, without clearance from ATC, as long as we do this on a non-controlled portion of the field. If we intend to taxi across a controlled part (e.g. to the fuel station), we needboth startup andtaxi clearance
American ATC controlled airports certainly operate like this (I crossed out the startup part), and as Guillaume described, for both VFR and IFR. I’ve mentioned to US pilots that in some places you actually have to ask ATC before even starting your engine, and the typical response is disbelief.
Okay, now we’re getting confused between the sequence of events that lead up to an eventual departure from the airfield, and the mechanical act of starting the engine.
When I refer to ‘startup clearance’ I’m referring to the clearance that sets a sequence of events in motion. That starts with me starting the engine, and ends somewhere when my wheels left the runway. Or even later.
If you want to run the engine for another reason, on a part of the airport that’s not under ATC control, and have no intention to enter an ATC-controlled area, then I agree that a startup ‘clearance’ from ATC makes no sense. In that case local rules (and common sense) applies. Although in my experience a courtesy call to ATC with your intentions is always appreciated.
At my local airport, we can start the engine and even taxi around, without clearance from ATC, as long as we do this on a non-controlled portion of the field. If we intend to taxi across a controlled part (e.g. to the fuel station), we need both startup and taxi clearance, but no flight plan. And if we intend to do any flying, we need to file a flight plan.
ATC aren’t saying it is safe for you to start, they are saying you are allowed to start. You are confusing the two concepts.
When an aircraft ask us to start up the engine, we ask him to check the safety arround the aircraft with the ground crew. We do not give engine start-up clearance ourselves on the apron . It’s not our responsibility.
That is hardly normal at large airports in my experience.
