Resources for familiarisation to flying in the US

Aveling wrote:

UK car insurance absolutely does not cover US driving and having asked my company’s brokers at almost every renewal I’m told no such policy I’d possible.

Sorry, incorrect. Check out http://insurance4carhire.com/. They are a specialty insurers for that (I have no interest in them, other than having used them in the past).

Aveling wrote:

The problem is in my direct experience that it can be quite hard to get an FBO to show you proof of insurance

Also incorrect (at least in CA). Proof of insurance has to be carried in the car (a legal requirement in CA), so a quick look in the glove compartment of a loaner should do. In case of rental, the rental contract suffices.

Insurance etc.

Thanks for the replies chaps. I’m sorry to have drifted the thread away from its original purpose. Maybe I can be permitted one response:

Regarding courtesy cars, my point is that you typically have no way to verify that a car is insured (and FBO’s have a practiced look of deep offence if you mention it, partly because they don’t know that your personal car insurance is of no value out there.) in any case, having arrived at some remote airstrip you’re in a poor position to quibble about it. So you drive the car – carefully.

UK car insurance absolutely does not cover US driving and having asked my company’s brokers at almost every renewal I’m told no such policy I’d possible. BTW the rental insurance referred to is offered in UK is to remove the need for expensive supplementary insurance on rental cars – it absolutely does not apply to loan cars, based on my personal enquiries with the companies concerned.

Agreed courtesy cars are likely to carry some minimal insurance but even this is likely to favour the owner, not the driver. In any case, the limits for 3rd party claims required by the particular state might be woefully low, say $10,000. That’s why you are advised to buy sli (Supplimentary liability) on a hertz car in California, typically $1m or more. Otherwise, avoid driving near schools or puppy farms!

In the case of aircraft renters insurance I agree I larded it up a bit with the $1m hull value. But even a 172 is worth $90,000 and the renters premium is nowhere near this. So what happens if the FBO has not paid his premium, voided it on some infringement or is otherwise not covered. Will Avopmecoa cover you anyway, including the full amount of hull value and 3rd party claims? I don’t know and the one single case I’m aware of the plane was insured and they covered the deductible and didn’t quibble about the address used. Maybe it’s never been tested with an uninsured plane.

The problem is in my direct experience that it can be quite hard to get an FBO to show you proof of insurance and you’re in a weak negotiating position having just crossed an ocean to fly this specific plane. (Enquiries about issues like this in advance of departure often lead to fairly rapid end of communication!) so it’s another rock and hard place.

So I go back to my original position: if you are going to rent or borrow in the US, be aware that it’s a grown up country where you are responsible for the consequences of your own actions and not all risks are indemnifiable.

172driver wrote:

WRT renter’s insurance, agree with @Silvaire, however not so sure WRT the courtesy car. While I haven’t really researched it, the fact is that showing my insurance card (for one of my US-registered vehicles) at a rental counter removes the necessity of buying insurance, as my insurance – and that’s me as a person, not one of my cars – carries the insurance. It seems to a hybrid model, a bit like in France.

That’s true for ‘hull’ coverage on the rental car, but liability is legally required to be covered by the rental company. What you are/are not buying is coverage for damage to the car itself, and for rental cars (although not trucks I found) it’s your choice in the US regardless of what your own cars policy may or may not cover.

I assumed that the issue with insurance on an FBO courtesy car was centered on legally required liability coverage with a foreign driver’s license, ‘hull’ coverage didnt occur to me as the main issue. I don’t carry that on on the vehicles I own, so my exposure would be little different when driving the Courtesy Car… maybe better if the FBO had it fully insured. I believe anyway that the owner’s policy would cover a foreign licensed driver at the same level as any other driver regardless of coverage details.

Aveling wrote:

A further issue is the value indemnified, since these very cheap ($200-$300) premiums are not enough to cover a major 3rd party claim or indeed the value of the hull which can be millions and should be charged at a percent or two.

The thing is hulls which can be worth millions aren’t rented out, and with the typical FBO rental the FBO does have insurance on the aircraft but the deductible (excess) is very high – high four digits or low five digits. The renter’s insurance is typically covering the deductible. The FBO wants you to have it so if you bend the plane and cause $5000 worth of damage (which won’t be covered by their own insurance due to the high deductible) you’re going to cover it.

From the insurer’s point of view, they may have 20 student pilots all paying $300 renter’s insurance so they can all fly the same Cessna 150 or Cherokee 140, so not only do they have a payment from the FBO for their fleet, they also effectively have $6000/year worth of renter’s insurance covering the same plane. Sweet deal for them!

FWIW, in the UK, insurance works on the basis that unless something is specifically excluded, it is included. I was told this by a former business partner who was in the insurance business. So if there is no “foreign” exclusion, you should be covered. I can’t see how insurance in the USA could work any differently in this respect, because not being so would make most policies worthless due to some technicality. An if the broker is lying then it is down to his professional liability insurance to pick up the bill but I suspect the broker knows exactly how far he can push things…

WRT renter’s insurance, agree with @Silvaire, however not so sure WRT the courtesy car. While I haven’t really researched it, the fact is that showing my insurance card (for one of my US-registered vehicles) at a rental counter removes the necessity of buying insurance, as my insurance – and that’s me as a person, not one of my cars – carries the insurance. It seems to a hybrid model, a bit like in France.

However, despair not. There is a UK insurance company that will insure you globally for various excess charges. I used them for years (never had a claim, though!), I think they a re called insuranceforcarhire.com or similar, Google is your friend.

What’s the theory on why you would not be insured while driving an FBO courtesy car, assuming the owner of the car has insured it? AFAIK all US car insurance policies cover licensed drivers other than the registered owner, if they have the owners permission to drive the car. Having researched the issue in relation to letting foreign drivers use my cars I found that non-resident foreign national drivers are considered legally licensed for driving within my state, just like out of state licensed drivers, and that is unaffected by what car they are driving or where and to whom it is registered. So my car insurance is valid for non-resident foreign licensed drivers.

The issue with ‘Hit by foreign driver?’ as per the billboard typically means being hit by a Mexican driving a car with no (US) liability insurance. They usually disappear after the incident, so if as a US resident you have uninsured motorist coverage your lawyer goes after your insurance company to maximize the payout, armed with your limited evidence of the incident. In the unlikely event of the foreign driver being traceable and having some US assets they’ll go after those too. A non-resident foreign national with no US assets is of about zero interest to a lawyer and the police won’t do anything unless there were injuries.

Re needing a ‘permanent’ US address for aircraft renters insurance, this is one of those concepts that doesn’t really translate. We don’t have registered addresses, the post office will deliver to anybody at any address and so on. The insurance company can’t prove where you live or don’t live, because nobody except the IRS once per year (and the USCIS in real time for resident foreigners) has official government records on where you live, and those records aren’t public. When moving I’ve told the state driver licensing people of my address change and they record it for mailing purposes but they don’t update the address on the license itself until it periodically expires. I suspect its a non-issue for renters insurance, the company just wants somewhere to send the paperwork.

Renters insurance for foreigners is an very grey area since they all appear to insist on US mailing addresses and won’t send correspondence overseas. I’ve been assured more that once that the accommodation address route is legit, but am always left with the feeling that the brokers are trying to conceal your true identity from the underwriters.

A further issue is the value indemnified, since these very cheap ($200-$300) premiums are not enough to cover a major 3rd party claim or indeed the value of the hull which can be millions and should be charged at a percent or two.

On the positive side, I have heard of a case where the payout covered the owners deductible in a write off situation, and no questions were asked about a fake address that was used, and the fbo’s insurer pickup the rest.

There seem to be other areas of US insurance that will not cover foreigners, the use of airport courtesy cars being one. Rental car yes, but not courtesy cars.

If anyone knows an answer to the courtesy car conundrum, I’d be pleased to hear it. Regarding renters insurance, it does not remove the need to have a very clear discussion about the exact nature of the insurance in place on the airplane and who benefits, something some fbo’s seem very reluctant to do.

I’ve always taken the view that in the limit, I’d better be able to buy them a new airplane if I have to. But the courtesy car case is much worse, since as a foreign driver, wrong side of road etc., you could easily end up with a $1m law suit be ing prosecuted by one of those blood suckers who conveniently advertise on huge hoardings at traffic intersections in Las Vegas – “Hit by foreign driver? Leave it to us!”

AOPA US – https://www.aopa.org/ – offers Renters Insurance with an email link for enquiries.
It would be worth asking there first if they insist on a ‘permanent’ US address; or are happy with a ‘temporary’ one?