The thread on pprune is a must-read for anyone who’s thinking about getting into the ecommerce business…
A lot of pitfalls get exposed, like:
- Should I discuss my business on a public forum?
- Is it OK to charge a credit card before the goods are shipped?
- How can customers reach me and what response time do they expect?
- When should I remove negative reviews from a public website?
- How do I cope with malicious orders / fake addresses?
- What is our money-back policy?
- What’s delivery time is expected?
- etc etc
My answers in the same order:
- Yes, why not? Tim Dawson of SkyDemon does so regularly and commands respect because he does it openly and honestly
- NO! Unless it is a specially ordered item and it is agreed up front that you are doing this.
- Preferably by a top class phone service. If you have live chat, make sure it’s manned and responsive. Whoever takes the call owns the problem.
- Never unless they are plainly faked. Much better either to post a simple factual rebuttal or, if the complaint is justified, own up and say what you have done to fix the problem
- Even if you get a valid credit / debit card, you still need to be careful as the card could be cloned. You need to check the merchant services provider’s policy on this.
- I would offer a 14 day money back policy with the customer paying the return transport cost.
- Ex stock with standard and express delivery options. If items aren’t available ex stock: give a clear delivery date and stick to it. If, for some reason out of your control the delivery slips, tell the customer and keep them informed.
- Etc Etc? Work like hell to earn and keep a reputation for professionalism, friendliness and a willingness to go the extra mile.
My £.02
[quoted section fixed up]
Having been in business since 1978 I think the basic issue is to run a business prudently, which means
Few businesses abide by any of the above, let alone all of them 
Should I discuss my business on a public forum?
That’s an interesting one. The internet has been a great leveller of commerce, especially for the customer profile that hangs out online.
The general business approach is that you ignore forums, and stonewall/whitewash all contacts other than purchases or trivial enquiries. Admittedly that is partly a necessary thing due to the poor quality of the customer interface personnel recruited by the bucketload (script monkeys mostly), but internet forums (and most flying forums particularly) can quickly become as vicious as a gang of chimpanzees, so you need to handle it carefully and play it very straight.
And if you do that, having a presence on forums will greatly enhance your business. Same here – if an aviation business posts usefully on EuroGA, they will get business out of it. But we allow them to do that only if they post and continue to post good useful detailed replies. Most businesses who maintain a presence on forums do it by dropping useless one-liners (just to keep the name up) and they don’t seem to realise it doesn’t do them any good because the most desirable customers are not stupid.
In the wider sense, a business which reads bad stuff about them on a forum and ignores it, is missing out on an opportunity. A customer who has had a bad experience but had it promptly fixed will be more loyal than a customer who has never had one, and forum presence is an opportunity to address complaints and show you care. And if you played it straight, complaints will be mostly malicious anyway and it will be easy to show that is the case.
The internet does however mean that you need to do fast no-quibble refunds even if you get a customer who has obviously screwed you around (and some will). So you need to build in a % for goods returned smashed, etc. Otherwise the first unhappy customer will slag you off and then the rest of the gang will smell blood and finish you off.
When should I remove negative reviews from a public website?
You can’t, basically. Especially on a forum whose admins/mods are anonymous and unaccountable (there’s a thought for those who would prefer that… think about it 
)
How do I cope with malicious orders / fake addresses?
Was that a factor here?
With a credit card payment, how can this happen? If you give your full CC details to somebody, it is possible for them to buy stuff with it.
One does get the nigerian-type scams, where somebody wants to buy 100 of everything on the price list, with a credit card, but they are obvious to anybody with more than 2 braincells – if you have such a person doing the sales order processing! And if you haven’t then you deserve what you will get.
I am not making a comment on Proviation, about whose business I know nothing. I do recall sending them some enquiries over a period of time and the appearance was that they just ordered stuff back to back i.e. only when they got an order. But that is the operating mode of most specialist resellers these days. Do you think my own european distributors keep stock? Yeah right.
The internet has made it very easy to start a business. You can even piggy back onto an online shop facility, so basically you don’t need to do anything for the sales admin (Ebay and Amazon are examples but there are many online shop sites which look like they are yours). But the lower bar to entry means a much higher % will fold up.
Ultimately, customer quality ranges from really nice to really shi*tty, and where your business will end up positioned is largely according to the quality of your corporate image. If your customer facing image (website and comms, basically, for an online trader) are crap, you will attract crap customers. And if you compete purely on price, you will attract predominantly customers who have zero loyalty. This could have been written 100 or 1000 years ago and has never changed.
The thread on pprune is a must-read for anyone who’s thinking about getting into the ecommerce business…
A lot of pitfalls get exposed, like:
- Should I discuss my business on a public forum?
- Is it OK to charge a credit card before the goods are shipped?
- How can customers reach me and what response time do they expect?
- When should I remove negative reviews from a public website?
- How do I cope with malicious orders / fake addresses?
- What is our money-back policy?
- What’s delivery time is expected?
- etc etc
Peter, you were quite right to keep the argument short, here. At the ‘’other place’’ it is disgraceful to see people sh_tting on the sinner’s head – as if they could further themselves by reducing a (now) helpless victim. Not that the victim merits any defense or support, if I may believe what I read there.
And now they’re gone. News on the other site:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/476735-proviation-customer-care-problems-27.html
No sadness here.
Dublinpilot provided a link above, and it pretty much says it all, and the cycle of events continues (I also bought from them once so I empathise). The general advice besides avoiding them, is to contact PayPal if you used that method to get your money back, or your credit card company, and or Trading Standards.
Money taken and nothing received! Do not do business with Proviation
I placed an order for an item for next day delivery with proviation. The item never arrived. I emailed them to enquire as to the location of the item and was advised that it was not in stock, even though the website offered next day delivery. My order was placed on the 17th October. Proviation promised by email to refund the charge for next delivery and deliver the item the following week once it was in stock. I think they were wrong to take money for an item and charge me for next day delivery when they did not even have the item in stock. I could have gone elsewhere and received the item in time! After emailing and calling the office with no response I emailed the Proviation on the 28th October to ask where my goods were, as still none had been received. In my email I told them that I expected delivery immediately or they should refund me the full amount charged. I managed to chat online with someone called Alex who said that the money would be refunded. I advised them that it was unfortunate that they could not deliver as promised, as I intended to purchase 16 of the same unit (‘butt kicker) £150.49 and they could have had a good size order from me, but now after the lack of service that I had received I was forced to go elsewhere. Later that same day I received a call from Nick, he did not apologise, he was only interested in gaining the order for additional 16 units that I required. I told him to refund my money immediately. He confirmed that the money would be refunded. Following the call I sent an email on the 1st November to advise the orders department that both Nick and Alex had agreed to a refund. I received a reply the same day advising that my order had been cancelled and that a refund could take up to 7-10 days to show in my account. I knew that this was waffle as I have made and received refunds on debit cards previously and they do not take this long. However I decided to be patient and give Proviation the benefit of the doubt. Now it is November 12th and no monies have been received. They still do not answer the telephone. I have called them since and no answer. I even have Nick’s mobile number but he never answers his phone when I call. Avoid this company at all costs. They do not respect or appreciate their customers. They do not the first thing about customer service. They are keen to take your money, don’t’ be fooled by their website and hand them any of your hard earned cash!
I have finally lost patience with them, and after reading this thread, have sent them a registered letter, and today I have applied for a CCJ. Thanks Peter for pointing this procedure out.
Posting specific examples e.g. "I bought X and it never arrived and the company took 6 months to refund the payment" is fine but I suspect it would be a rather sparse and boring thread
In that case... I ordered a TrackIR and some other miscellaneous items. The map took over a week and my nav revision suffered greatly (unable to revise sample questions with only a Scottish map). The TrackIR took months. The helpline was never answered, though the sales line was. I was repeatedly reassured that the TrackIR was on the way, when it wasn't. The whole experience left a bad taste and for one who normally keeps a sense of perspective on these things, I found it surprisingly upsetting.
Just my personal experience...
I can see why as a forum owner these threads are probably a legal nightmare. However I agree that they serve an useful function. For example the owner of Proviation has intimated that people have been writing false reviews about him. Stranger things have happened and I'm sure that some companies would stoop to such a level. One of the advantages of a forum over e.g. Trustpilot is that a forum is a community, and so if a number of long-term personalities have had a bad experience with something or someone I sit up and take note - astroturfing is much more difficult on a forum than on a site where most contributors are writing their first review.
So I don't see any need for further discussion here. PPrune has a legal team to manage such issues...let's not force Peter and David to employ a legal team to manage what we say ;)
Amen to that!
