Peter wrote:
the French “clubs” are flight training operations, where the flight training income subsidises the long standing members’ flying costs.
That is bollocks. 
Flight training is important for maintaining the membership levels constant or grow them hence ensuring that fixed cost can be spread over many contributors. Aeroclubs also provide flight training at relatively low cost because they are not-for-profit organisations with little overhead and a partly volunteer flight instructors.
We are digressing here but, from what I have heard over the years, the French “clubs” are flight training operations, where the flight training income subsidises the long standing members’ flying costs.
Whereas a UK syndicate of say 30 around a PA28 won’t be doing flight training. They can’t anyway; you need to be an ATO. The most they can do is let somebody get their license revalidated, or maybe do an IMC Rating. Many UK ATOs call themselves “clubs” but they aren’t clubs in any sense.
Also southern Europe is known for tax concessions to “sporting” organisations.
Peter wrote:
I know of a couple of 25-30 members.
That’s what we would call an aeroclub in France. There must be some which are even smaller.
And come to think of it, if you buy 1/30th of a plane or you pay a new members’ entrance fee and monthly dues doesn’t really make a great difference. Is it just that Brits like to own the plane they fly and French prefer to be in a club, or is there another reason for such large owners’ groups? I’ve never heard of similar setups in any other European country.
Historically there was a 20 limit (defined as min holding being 5%) and beyond that you needed Public Transport maintenance which cost more £££. But I think that is finished now. I know of a couple of 25-30 members.
The typical well operated large syndicate (limit of 20?) around a 172/PA28, usually has an FI as an administrator/shareholder and the average utilisation might be around 10-15 hours per member a year. Some members might fly 30 or 40 hours, but beyond that these syndicates don’t really work.
Social events help keep everybody rubbing along. I think the admin/secretary role is largely a labor of love and requires a person who will do a proper job.
My only experience has been with a nicely run outfit around a 1974 172M, and for occasional access to a well maintained aircraft it is a good set up.
I don’t know the % distribution here (maybe someone who hangs out in the UK scene might drop in a view) but we have syndicates of all sizes, from 2 to about 30.
The IFR tourer types tend to have small syndicates – 2-4 members, fairly obviously because it is hard to find IFR qualified people who don’t already own their own plane. I know of syndicates around TBMs of 2 or 3 and one similar sized one around a KA90.
The big syndicates are invariably around the PA28/C150/152/172/182 types. I am more familiar with those because I fly with some of the members. Yes; access is poor but if you are paying 25 quid a month retainer you are happy to get to fly once a month and that’s why you are in it. However, weekday access can be good and that suits self employed people e.g. electricians etc. The maintenance costs are massive (one C150 was 8k-10k at the Annual so pretty well the entire value of the plane was spent every year) because the planes are for ever in a poor condition.
And yes it is true that a lot of members of the bigger syndicates don’t fly. The problem is that they eventually want to get out, and stop paying their monthly fees…
I don’t think a syndicate will work if somebody wants to take the plane away for say a week, unless it is a very small and very friendly one.
I say “friendly” because a large % of syndicates suffers from somebody taking the p1ss and e.g. pocketing the fuel duty drawback, and nobody has the courage to take that person on. I hear this stuff behind the scenes all the time.
So, yeah, start with the right people.
And make sure everybody has a compatible attitude to maintenance and generally doing stuff right.
If there is to be pilot maintenance involved (you can do the 50hr checks and that saves a lot of money over using a company) then one needs to straighten out who will do that and what the compensation for that will be. If one person ends up doing it, he will eventually get fed up with it. This is a bigger problem on uncertified types which make very little sense unless all the maintenance is done by the owner(s).
I had a booking website, custom written in Perl, but nowadays one would use some ready-made website.
Yes, those UK-style, 10-or-more-shareholder-syndicates only “work” if most of them do no or virtually no trips. If several people want to travel, it doesn’t work.
In Germany, 95% of all syndicates are two, three or sometimes 4 shareholders.
Trying to understand how this equation would work:
IFR is for traveling
Traveling is for going places (and staying?)
Many people prefer to go places in summer
With so many pilots, how do you achieve fair availability without becoming yet another conventional aero club?
In other words: If I take the plane for an extended week-end, every one else is grounded?
I can’t see the scheme working for more than 3-4 pilots. Any more and the plane can only be a “daytrip” thing.
@Piotr_Szut wrote:
I certainly would be a client. I’m now looking for a twin around Paris (where I live now) that would be available for periods of one week or one month. A DA42 would be fine but all of them seem to be operated by flight schools and hence not available for renting.
Actually I would be interested in buying a DA42 to be based at LFPT or LFPN provided I had a partner. I am currently renting a DA42 (NG) at LFPN which I have taken away for a couple of weeks during the winter. During summer the owner uses it every weekend, but it is available on weekdays.
PM me if interested
frequent_flyer wrote:
I confirm, there is indeed a well equiped and TR182 (GNS500 and ASPEN1000 PFD) based at Entzheim : 180 euros/h.
I am already using it, to train my IR, but I am concerned they may be selling it in the future because it is really not flying a lot.
Wow ! that is quite cheap, make it fly and they’l keep it
Here it costs closer to 300 EUR/h with a GTN 650 “only”
As for the M20J I was more worried about the grass and quality of the runway as it seems to be the main concern of Mooney owners with grass strips. I’d say 800m should be enough for most operations with the M20J but I don’t own one and therefore do not know the POH by heart…
