You just have to do things and not talk about thinking doing things.
Yes I agree. My point was we can use these airplanes in Ireland in ALL airspace in the republic, day or night without 8.33Khz or Mode S. The only restriction is you can’t fly IFR, but would you really want to in a low value airplane? Its also worth pointing out that an 8.33Khz or Mode S do not add any extra capability to the pilot. I’m struggling to think where I was advantaged by having 8.33/Mode S or indeed disadvantaged by not having them? I can’t find many examples but I can remember being cleared straight through Stanstead, London City and Gatwick without them last summer. They are not like a GPS or an engine monitor etc etc. I think we are getting all rose tinted about it what these pieces of equipment actually do.
I nearly had a mid air with a drone at 1700ft last weekend. What use was my turned on Mode S transponder transponder there?
LeSaving has an interesting attitude to certified aircraft and seems to be in favour of the new breed of " almost aircraft " that offer so much and deliver so little. The light construction is such that they can’t Handel the rough & tumble of flying club life if they are a performance type or if they can they are built in such a way to be robust enough for a flying club They can’t fly very fast or very far.
There are some non – certified aircraft that do have speed & payload but these are at the top end of the market and cost as much to run as certified aircraft.
The bottom line is there is no free lunch.
The same can be said for the 8.33 issue, there is little point having an aircraft that can’t go places because it is banned from airspace with any sort of air traffic control.
LeSving wrote:
For experimentals and microlights it is 3-5k, but then you have to mount everything yourself.
Probably less, anywhere sane you can use a handheld com radio in a non-certified, and Trig do Mode-S for about £1600.
LeSving wrote:
If that happens, it’s goodbye certified GA for sure for 90% of PPL pilots.
I would say that 90% of all PPL pilots around where I live already have mode S and 8,33MHz capability installed since a couple of years.
BTW: A Garmin GTS 328 transponder costs around 2300 Euros and a Garmin GTR225 COM is around 1650 Euros, together 3950 Euros (plus VAT where applicable, around here that would add 19% and we are still below 5000!). Sure, that’s some money, but then quite a few aircraft owners I know drive cars where you spend a similar amount for a new set of tyres…
Don´t forget that installation costs effectively double the purchase price
You can find many used GTX330 non ES on ebay for USD1000-1500.
You can, but most European installers won’t touch an item from US Ebay, or a used one from anywhere, unless it comes with a fresh 8130-3 and, on the interpretation of one big UK shop, the 8130-3 has to be issued by the manufacturer, and then it is not that likely to be on Ebay.
Obviously lots of European owners buy stuff from US Ebay but it is used mostly for off-the-books stuff like replacing a duff ADF, DME, radios, etc, with the same type. And I am told you can’t do this in Germany because everything gets pulled out at the Annual and serial numbers checked, so you would have to use the hair dryer method whereby the stickers magically jump from one to the other.
Peter wrote:
And I am told you can’t do this in Germany because everything gets pulled out at the Annual and serial numbers checked,…
Theoretically. And maybe at large shops which have a reputation to lose.
Peter wrote:
…so you would have to use the hair dryer method whereby the stickers magically jump from one to the other.
One of our technicians is really good at that using just an x-acto knife. No hairdryer required 
Peter_Mundy wrote:
Don´t forget that installation costs effectively double the purchase price
Not really. Many planes have had the KT76 installed and Trig delivers a slide-in replacement for a bit over 2k€. The COM is a bit more work, but I did not pay anywhere near the price of the TY91 for the installation (although some of the work was done by me, so it’s not entirely compareable, I’d had to pay myself roughly 250€/h to get there).
WilliamF wrote:
My point was we can use these airplanes in Ireland in ALL airspace in the republic, day or night without 8.33Khz or Mode S.
Here around it is different, but I have seen many aircraft on the market and changing hands for a realistic price where the mandate of 833 just triggered a long overdue sale. There are many proud new owners to who these aircraft present a lot affordable utility and they just factor in the costs for 833 and Mode S into the purchase price. Sure, some planes are on the market for completely delusional amounts of money, but that is almost never what’s being paid. And in today’s world you just need a tablet, a single VOR, COM, XPDR and you are very well equipped for pretty everything you want to do VFR. So instead of installing a several-thousand-Euro GPS unit, they invest in getting these old creaking radios replaced into something more ear-pleasing. (BTW: That is something, a couple of AFIS/FIS/RADAR stations should invest in, too. Some of those are almost unreadable, even with very good headsets, a good intercom and a new radio on our side). I don’t shed a single tear to see those KY195Bs, COM-120s, COM810s and all this other old and heavy stuff vanish from the aircraft.
mh wrote:
LeSving is constantly phantasising about an alleged death of certified GA.
For once, please stick to the subject. My point is that Mode S and 8.33 does nothing for light GA other than lower the value of each and every aircraft. There is nothing good about that.
And, if we get a “secondary” class of old aircraft that only can be flown in uncontrolled airspace, then they have even less utility value than an average microlight. There is nothing good about this either. My like or dislike to certified aircraft has nothing to do with this.
