A coast to coast flight is feasible without encountering a requirement for ADS-B Out and as TMO points out the regulation excludes the airspace below 2500 AGL, which would apply to flying in mountainous areas out west. I have about 500 hours in a C172, I doubt any of that was above 10,000 MSL and most was out west.
NCYankee wrote:
no mandate
Yes, it’s a mandate. FAA Mandates Aircraft ADS-B ‘Out’ Equipage by 2020 http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2010-05-27/faa-mandates-aircraft-ads-b-out-equipage-2020
If you don’t want to fly anywhere in the Western USA or along the Appalachians on the East coast or near or in an ADIZ or into Canada or Mexico or over the Caribbean or land at one of the Bravo or Charlie airports or be in contact with ATC enroute (flight following) or have traffic awareness and free weather. And on any attempt to fly cross-country eliminate half the possible fuel stops (a lot of airports are UNDER outer shelves of Class Bravo and Charlie airspaces). Then don’t upgrade.
NCYankee wrote:
TMO points out the regulation excludes the airspace below 2500 AGL,
OK, I stand corrected, that had escaped me.
NCYankee wrote:
I doubt any of that was above 10,000 MSL and most was out west.
Interesting. Unless going for a local bimble (or to Catalina) pretty much all my flights here go above that.
USFlyer wrote:
If you don’t want to fly anywhere in the Western USA or along the Appalachians on the East coast or near or in an ADIZ or into Canada or Mexico or over the Caribbean or land at one of the Bravo or Charlie airports or be in contact with ATC enroute (flight following) or have traffic awareness and free weather. And on any attempt to fly cross-country eliminate half the possible fuel stops (a lot of airports are UNDER outer shelves of Class Bravo and Charlie airspaces). Then don’t upgrade.
Sorry,
But you have a gross misunderstanding of the regulation. IFR flight is not even mentioned in 91.225 or 91.227 and obtaining ATC services for IFR or flight following is in no way restricted. If IFR or flight following is in any way restricted, please quote the regulation. It is true that you must remain outside of the Class C and B airspace and remain below 10,000 MSL or in the mountainous areas out west below 2500 AGL, but that more than satisfies the needs of tens of thousands of pilots. The US is an awful big country and as seen by the graphic, most of it is not restricted below 10000 MSL (or 2500 AGL). The chart was prepared by the FAA to point out the areas that ADS-B is not required. The most restrictive issue is the requirement to remain clear of the 30 NM veil to the surface. Flight below the Class C is permitted as is flight below the class B, but because of the mode C veil surface restriction it is not practical under most class B airspace. Even with the restrictions, if an aircraft is not equipped, the regulation provides for entry into the airspace with a one hour notice and permission from the local ATC responsible for the airspace.
Canada does not have an equipment mandate and they don’t plan on implementing one. Mexico is planning on one similar to the US, but without the ground based services. The Caribbean islands have no plans at all. ADS-B In is not part of the regulation. TISB traffic is a feature only found in the US and it is not part of the mandate, although it is a carrot. The ADS-B weather is another carrot, but has no dependency on equipping for ADS-B Out. It is true that some fuel stops would be unavailable if they are inside the B/C areas, but in my experience, the closer you get to the big city, the higher the fuel prices. Pilots are cheap and will pick the slow county airports where the FBO is run by the county, and they sell gas, often at a loss. Governments don’t care if they make a profit.
NCYankee wrote:
gross misunderstanding
Laughing…read the mandate. By the way, I have been flying with ADS-B In/Out for two years. The tool is a life-saver…especially when flying cross-country beyond the reach of flight-following. You seem to have a strange resistance to safety.
That is a misrepresentation as as I have no resistance to safety. I have had ADS-B Out and In installed in my aircraft for a few years as well. I highly recommend it. I have been professionally working with ADS-B since 2010 before the rule was established and was a consultant to one of the original contract bidders. I thoroughly understand the regulation and comment when someone misrepresents what the regulation says, as you have done. I have been active in dealing with both the FAA, Garmin, and FreeFlight with particular emphasis on installation issues, using my knowledge gained as an Avionics shop owner and long term consulting in the ADS-B arena.
I submitted several comments to the original NPRM, one request for an FAA General Counsel opinion that the regulation had an unintended error to which the General counsel agreed with my analysis and one formal petition to the FAA for a change to the regulation to eliminate the mode C veil requirement to permit aircraft with a mode C transponder to fly underneath the Class B areas. I have raised an area of concern at ATPAC with the lack of any means to trouble reporting of ADS-B issues. The FAA responded positively with updates to the AIM and the order that provides guidance to Flight Service briefers.
I know all the key players at the FAA on a first name basis. I attend the Aeronautical Charting Forum / Instrument Procedures group (ACF/IPG) and the Air Traffic Procedures Advisory Committee (ATPAC). I am a consultant to the major EFB software provider in the US on ADS-B matters.
I have also provided my opinion on the acceptance of ADS-B Out, particularly for aircraft and aircraft owners of low performance or low value aircraft. The high cost of installation will be a barrier that many such aircraft owners will delay ADS-B Out installations. It is a fact that 10% have never seen it necessary to install a transponder with mode C after all these years. At my airport, which is under the class B, there will probably be a dozen or more of owners who will sell or move their aircraft, rather than equip.
So what is your expertise on the subject? Have you stopped laughing long enough to find the regulation that says that IFR and Flight Following require ADS-B Out?
USFlyer wrote:
The tool is a life-saver…especially when flying cross-country beyond the reach of flight-following.
My experience in the US has been the opposite – I only encountered areas in which TIS-B broadcast was not available (GNS430 announced “traffic not available”), but flight following was.
I seriously wonder, USFlyer – which specific area in the US are you talking about? Are you even based in the US, if so at which airport? Are you really a pilot?
@NCYankee – Please don’t be put off by such comments. I enjoy reading all of your posts because they are always spot on, knowledgeable and enlightening.
Rwy20 wrote:
My experience in the US has been the opposite – I only encountered areas in which TIS-B broadcast was not available (GNS430 announced “traffic not available”), but flight following was.
Most likely, you are referring to a different traffic system, TIS which is a mode S product. It is often confused with TISB which is an ADS-B system product. TIS without the B is provided by mode S radars around most of the major airports and uses 1030 MHz to uplink the nearest 8 targets. When you fly outside of the coverage area, the GNS430 will audibly announce “Traffic Not Available”. ADS-B does not use a similar audio announcement and there is substantially greater coverage in the US. See the TIS coverage areas with the following graphic. Outside the blue areas, there is no TIS coverage.
Here is the TISB coverage areas at various altitudes:
3000 AGL
Rwy20 wrote:
Please don’t be put off by such comments. I enjoy reading all of your posts because they are always spot on, knowledgeable and enlightening.
Thanks for the kind words
NCYankee wrote:
ADS-B Out and In installed in my aircraft for a few years
If you have ADS-B then why the objection to it? I encourage everyone to get the gear…it will make the sky’s safer IMHO.
USFlyer wrote:
If you have ADS-B then why the objection to it?
Where, exactly, is NCYankee “objecting” to ADS-B? If fact, he says the opposite! You are making things up. Again.
