This is true and very common for Single Pilot turboprop/light bizjet operations.
Often you see two pilots (with their uniforms and lanyards and all) in the flight deck of a Single Pilot bizjet, flying under SPO rules.
Really? I’m familiar with such cases for private NCO/NCC flights where owner pilots are instructed/mentored or (the smart ones) simply prefer a second pilot rated/qualified pilot on SPA, however, I’ve never heard about employed crew in uniforms where one isn’t a qualified and active pilot part of the crew.
SPA in CAT are MPOps.
lionel wrote:
The fact that the second pilot (fulfilling a safety or operationally useful role) cannot log the time, neither as PIC nor PICUS nor double command nor instructor time, does not preclude that (s)he is still crew for all purposes in all regulations, and in particular (s)he is not passenger. And in particular:since (s)he is not being carried as a passenger, recency requirements do not apply to the PIC (unless there is another person that is a passenger, not crew, on the flight)
(s)he must have access to oxygen according to rules for crew, not rules for passengers
This is true and very common for Single Pilot turboprop/light bizjet operations.
Often you see two pilots (with their uniforms and lanyards and all) in the flight deck of a Single Pilot bizjet, flying under SPO rules.
One of the pilots is the PIC, the other is simply a “crew member” upon which the PIC may decide to delegate (or not) certain tasks. Sometimes both pilots possess the qualifications to be PIC and just “take turns” being PIC, other times the “other pilot” is simply riding along and accumulating “experience” before doing the type rating etc.
For all intents and purposes, i.e., insurance, handling fees, airport security etc, the “other pilot” is NOT a passenger. The fact that he’s not allowed to log any flight time doesn’t mean he is a passenger (this is a big misunderstanding).
hazek wrote:
The safety pilot situation is indeed a bit weird.
Just to confuse everyone a bit more: in the US you can log PIC time if you are safety pilot for someone who flies practice approaches under the hood in VFR. In this case both pilots log PIC for the time that the pilot flying is under the hood.
The safety pilot situation is indeed a bit weird.
Just to push one of my pet peeves: The fact that the second pilot (fulfilling a safety or operationally useful role) cannot log the time, neither as PIC nor PICUS nor double command nor instructor time, does not preclude that (s)he is still crew for all purposes in all regulations, and in particular (s)he is not passenger. And in particular:
par wrote:
is there a way for both of them to log PIC time concurrently?
The regs are pretty clear:
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
(b) Logging of time:
(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC;
(ii) the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor;
(iii) the holder of an instructor certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she acts as an instructor in an aircraft;
(iv) the holder of an examiner’s certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an examiner in an aircraft;
(v) a co-pilot acting as PICUS on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or as required by operational requirements provided that such PICUS time is countersigned by the PIC;
(vi) if the holder of a licence carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.
(2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;
(3) cruise relief co-pilot flight time: a cruise relief co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat;
(4) instruction time: a summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction, instrument ground time, etc., may be logged if certified by the appropriately rated or authorised instructor from whom it was received;
(5) PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.
INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE
…
(h) When an aircraft carries two or more pilots as members of the operating crew, one of them shall, before the flight commences, be designated by the operator as the aircraft PIC, according to operational requirements, who may delegate the conduct of the flight to another suitably qualified pilot. All flying carried out as PIC is entered in the logbook as ‘PIC’. A pilot flying as ‘PICUS’ or ‘SPIC’ enters flying time as ‘PIC’ but all such entries are to be certified by the PIC or FI in the ‘Remarks’ column of the logbook.
Yes, I omitted this here to avoid confusion.
boscomantico wrote:
Whether a second qualified pilot on board can log anything has been the subject of pilot discussions for decades. But the general consensus is NO.
What confuses people is that under the FAA system, this is possible in some situations. But, as you say, not under EASA.
Very clearly, there can only be one pilot in command. Obvious.
Whether a second qualified pilot on board an SEP can log anything has been the subject of pilot discussions for decades. But the general consensus is NO.
Looking at the logging rules in Part-FCL, which lists all the possible “roles” of pilots, helps with coming to that conclusion. There is no “role” that this second pilot could possibly have. DUAL is not possible (as long as the other pilot is not an FI and acting as such). And “Co-Pilot” is also not possible, as that is a very narrowly defined thing in Part-FCL, not suitable for a “2 PPL pilots on board sharing the tasks” scenario. See?
par wrote:
But if two pilots friends fly in the same SEP aircraft (i.e. c182), is there a way for both of them to log PIC time concurrently?
In the UK the only case (AFAIK) is that one pilot has got a medical condition which requires a second person in the cockpit, otherwise – only one of them is PIC.
