ortac wrote:
But for any kind of VFR flying, the ATIS is really not super useful
what_next replied:
Well, some controlled airfields (like my homebase) have a lot of traffic at times, mixed IFR and VFR. All handled by a single tower controller: IFR takeoffs and landings and VFR departures and arrivals. If this controller would be required to pass wind, runway, weather and other information to each an every aircraft on his frequency, there would be insufficient time to handle them all.
Mixed VFR and IFR traffic operate on three runways simultaneously at my base, on one or two tower frequencies depending on traffic density and roughly 600 operations per day. Aircraft types at the airport commonly range between non-transponder Cubs with handheld radios and Gulfstreams making straight in approaches to the longest runway. The controllers job is to keep the traffic moving, creating a pattern not unlike road traffic in central Rome. 
Pilots need to have ATIS on initial call and then be immediately responsive to the controller as he/she mixes planes and airspace to get everybody in and out without delay. There would be no place for pilots without the numbers or for extended back and forth communications. It’s not relaxing, it’s necessary to get the business done. I think people (pilots and controllers) who have operated in a lazier environment could probably benefit from the experience, not withstanding that they (and I) would probably enjoy a quieter airport with lots of time and attention devoted to arrivals and departures… or ideally no ATC or traffic at all!
tomjnx wrote:
and if an aircraft ahead of you is cleared for a runway, chances are you’re not going to the opposite runway
LJLJ very often uses such approach in order to optimize the traffic when the wind is acceptable, so it’s quite common that one aircraft lands at 30 and the next one at 12 (no parallel runways).
tomjnx wrote:
He’ll have to give this information (in the form of a landing clearance) to every aircraft anyway
Yes, but without ATIS he is also required to give you that information on first contact, doubling the amount of radio traffic.
tomjnx wrote:
chances are you’re not going to the opposite runway end in Stuttgart
Actually, we have lots of opposite traffic here because of a small hill at one end of the runway which poses a threat to fully loaded airliners. So just watching (and listening) to what the other aircraft do is not always helpful.
what_next wrote:
If this controller would be required to pass wind, runway …
He’ll have to give this information (in the form of a landing clearance) to every aircraft anyway… and if an aircraft ahead of you is cleared for a runway, chances are you’re not going to the opposite runway end in Stuttgart…
ortac wrote:
But for any kind of VFR flying, the ATIS is really not super useful.
Well, some controlled airfields (like my homebase) have a lot of traffic at times, mixed IFR and VFR. All handled by a single tower controller: IFR takeoffs and landings and VFR departures and arrivals. If this controller would be required to pass wind, runway, weather and other information to each an every aircraft on his frequency, there would be insufficient time to handle them all. Two seconds for transmiting “information charlie received” will save 20 seconds for reading everything to the aircraft and waiting for it’s readback (runway and QNH need to be read back). I think in these circumstances this ATIS system is not only super useful but essential.
I think the importance of the ATIS is being a bit overstated here, with people saying “how do you know the wind” and so on as if there is no other alternative. When in practice a large proportion of fields don’t have ATIS anyway, and the FISO or whatever gives you the runway in use.
If the airfield is “busy” you will know the runway and wind anyway, as you will hear it given to other aircraft. A 29 minute old wind is not that useful anyway if close to limits, an instant wind given to another aircraft on final is much better.
If the airfield is not busy, then no big hassle for the controller to give you the required info.
IFR, where you need to be certain of the runway/approach in use from X miles out, the conditions vs minima, etc is a totally different thing of course.
But for any kind of VFR flying, the ATIS is really not super useful.
LeSving wrote:
I prefer the other way, much more relaxing when going straight in to land anyway.
Do you actually use the runway, or do you land in the grass next to the aeroclub?
Aviathor wrote:
Boys’n girls, keep in mind that Værnes ENVA is just another bush airport
Ha ha. It’s not exactly Heathrow in any way, but it got some 61k movements per year, 4.5M passengers per year. About the average size of any European non-main hub.
Peter wrote:
How do you know the wind on the runway? Or even the current runway (so you can position yourself appropriately for the right join)?Except for flying between non-radio strips (where you need to get close enough to the overhead to inspect the windsock, etc) none of this makes any sense to me, relative to my 16 years of flying.
There is no need to, not VFR. Coming from the south, via a couple of dedicated points on the boundary of the CTR, you are directed to downwind leg south of the field either 27 or 09. From the north it’s the same, but downwind leg north of the field either 27 or 09. Sometimes you are directed directly to final. The same principle is used everywhere at controlled fields. Before they closed the cross runway, you could simply request it at any time. There are plans now to build another, but shorter, parallel runway to the north. IFR I don’t know, but they have separate routes from VFR, and separate alt, also for visual approaches which all the Boeings seems to prefer (when weather allows). That way IFR and VFR do not interfere with each other, it is very smooth indeed (most of the time), you should try it some day
Silvaire wrote:
That’s basically IFR in all but flight conditions. In the US and many other places, for VFR operations, that complex procedure would only apply for landing at airports in Class C or B airspace. Under VFR, landing at ATC controlled airports in Class D or below would generally mean making one call to the tower inbound with the ATIS, with no prior ATC contact and no assigned squawk code. For that reason I try to avoid airports in Class C or above!
ENVA is class C airspace. I could also fly in G in total radio silence all the way to the CTR zone a few NM from the airport, some do (while listening to ATIS ) I prefer the other way, much more relaxing when going straight in to land anyway. Transponder is not strictly mandatory in Norway for light airplanes, not even in C airspace, but if equipped with a transponder, it is mandatory to use it (at all times, also in G). All airplanes stationed at controlled airfields have transponders, “requested” by the ATC.
LeSving wrote:
This is how it goes, a typical trip back from the “bush” with no FP. I take off, get high enough to contact information in G airspace, and when I do I get transponder code, QNH of the arrival airport + all other known (to information) activity.
In UK for this you don’t need radio at all so why to bother listening any radio, especially ATIS.
LeSving wrote:
This is how it goes, a typical trip back from the “bush” with no FP. I take off, get high enough to contact information in G airspace, and when I do I get transponder code, QNH of the arrival airport + all other known (to information) activity. I can ask information for anything. Then information tells me to contact the approach, and I do, and immediately get updated QNH, and any other info necessary to land (usually nothing). I have the transponder code, the approach know who I am, and where I am going, and they see me on their screen. Yet I haven’t cluttered the frequency with anything whatsoever. Then when close, approach tells me to contact CTR and it’s business as usual. It’s the same everywhere.
That’s basically IFR in all but flight conditions. In the US and many other places, for VFR operations, that complex procedure would only apply for landing at airports in Class C or B airspace. Under VFR, landing at ATC controlled airports in Class D or below would generally mean making one call to the tower inbound with the ATIS, with no prior ATC contact and no assigned squawk code. For that reason I try to avoid airports in Class C or above!
