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Is the UK legal to descend you below CAS and quietly remove the IFR clearance?

This is standard aviation procedure. You are “cleared to destination”. The fact that the clearance is dropped at the UK end, the departure tower won’t know…

If one remains “decisively” in CAS, it tends to work, but this needs FL090+ in the SE UK.

Lots of foreign pilots get caught by this. I get frequent emails…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

How high did you file FL120?

Surely your destination is not here

FL60.

It was not

Last Edited by Cttime at 03 Nov 20:54
Sweden

How high did you file FL120?
Surely your destination is not here

Relevance?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

How high did you file FL120?

Surely your destination is not here

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Nov 18:44
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Seems appropriate to comment here since this is where it’s been discussed…

I flew to/from Oostend a few weeks ago and was cleared to my (intentionally unnamed here) UK destination via the KONAN3M departure.

Sweden

Some new discussion here.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

I expect so, but based on what ETA+45min for the arrival at destination?

Usually actual time of departure (or flight plan activation) + EET + 30 minutes.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

LFHNflightstudent wrote:

When flying on and EASA license one is expected to follow SERA, you can’t be ’’busted’’ for following the regulation, though I suspect you could be busted for not following the rules which is exactly what UK ATC are doing… (edited for spelling mistake)

SERA are “airspace rules”. Everyone flying in “EASA airspace” is expected to follow SERA, no matter what the aircraft registration or state issuing the pilot license. OTOH, when flying outside “EASA airspace” SERA doesn’t apply at all — the rules of the state being overflown does. (Or ICAO Annex II over international waters.)

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I think the whole chosing to fly on N-REG in Europe debate is an entirely different one from complying with ICAO and EASA rules of the air.

I don’t want to sidetrack this but this is nothing to do with N-reg. It is 100% to do with the ability of an ICAO Contracting State to go after a pilot living there (I believe the correct terminology is a “national” i.e. a passport holder, but nobody is going to worry about that), and the ability of the CS to request the CS of the pilot’s residence to bust the pilot on behalf of the former CS. Try busting (as a UK pilot) one of the French nuclear power station ZITs and see what happens (and I know)

I have said before that the UK CAA is unlikely to go after a foreign pilot who merely demands a proper ATC service and a continuation of an IFR clearance – because the foreign CAA would just laugh at the request. But in the UK there is zero justice and no real defined process (CAP1404 is a bogus “policy cover” document) and if you are reported for arguing with ATC the CAA will just throw the book at you (there was a recent case – I spoke to him on the phone – although admittedly he went well over the top on the radio). I saw one recent CAA chief exec speak on this topic at a presentation and he left no doubt that they just love to bust people who “don’t show proper respect”.

And I am sure this is the same in every country; the enforcement dept of every CAA is staffed with ex police / ex mil and they tend to have the same personality traits (they were originally recruited for those, after all). People here just don’t criticise their own system on EuroGA

UK does not close flight plans nor trigger SAR on I-FPL based on lack of ARR messages in IFPS, not sure if even they ever send that? however, on UK ATC proprietary system (EFPS, electronic flight strips), it always receives DIV-ARR (diverted and landed), I understand this is automatically flagged in EFPS the moment an aircraft arrive at some 40nm area around the filed destination, the FPL will gets DIV-ARR and FPL get killed near EET unless aircraft flies missed approach or pop-up on radar again using same SSR squawk, none of this triggers SAR though

I can’t really work that out, but a VFR non-arrival varies, while an IFR (Eurocontrol) non-arrival is very likely to get noticed.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Yes. (Except in the UK…)

I expect so, but based on what ETA+45min for the arrival at destination? or reporting at max departure slot+ x min?

Yes UK is odd as responsibility to trigger SAR for uncontrolled flights is always on the pilot, who need to nominate “responsible person” like his wife, husband or mum

UK does not close flight plans nor trigger SAR on I-FPL based on lack of ARR messages in IFPS, not sure if even they ever send that? however, on UK ATC proprietary system (EFPS, electronic flight strips), it always receives DIV-ARR (diverted and landed), I understand this is automatically flagged in EFPS the moment an aircraft arrive at some 40nm area around the filed destination, the FPL will gets DIV-ARR and FPL get killed near EET unless aircraft flies missed approach or pop-up on radar again using same SSR squawk, none of this triggers SAR though

Last Edited by Ibra at 14 Sep 11:46
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
150 Posts
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