Frans wrote:
No, Germany does not prosecute anyone who posted their ATC recordings on YouTube or so.
I am not aware of anyone doing this but I know that people who asked got told no on the base of the “Fernmeldegesetz”.
Frans wrote:
. I think Germany has more a problem with live ATC recordings, like LiveATC, as this records all radio calls in general.
From what I am told from people active in the Amateur Radio Scene who know the laws in and out, their Fernmeldegesetz forbids reception of anything you are not directly involved in. For many years, they were also very critical about even owning scanners. And the principle still goes that you may not talk about anything you heard on the radio which was not intended for you or even mention that you received it. Clearly this is practice of ages past, but it’s still the law.
It is very well possible that there is a certain “laisser faire” attitude with DFS or others. That does not change what the law is and that anyone who has an axe to grind may well go bonkers about it and sue or post a “cease and desist” “Abmahnung”, which is a very lucrative business in the German speaking area as most people are more afraid of getting sued than to pay out some “compensation fee” to shut up lawyers.
The age old argument: “I want to see the prosecution papers in writing or it’s a lie” is simply nonsense. Who in his right mind would post papers online when he already is in trouble with the law? Maybe some exponents would but most will very quietly try to get out of it without making it worse.
Betting that you won’t get prosecuted because others did not may well work but may also cause massive problems if someone decides to kick up a ruckus and has the law on his side. I reckon Live ATC and others would not be so careful if there was no danger to this. My position has always been that if it’s the law, that is how it is. Want to change it, follow the political process to do that, but NEVER ever break it to achieve that.
Not disagreeing Frans, but why keep laws that aren’t enforced? At some point a disgruntled DFS operator hears his voice and complains or some resident reports you to the police or an overeager prosecutor finds it – and then? Basically you are breaking the law, there is no way around it, they have to fine you, and as an added bonus, there is the ZÜP to consider – maybe you’re unreliable, blatantly disregarding the law.
So, as a German, I’d refrain from doing so, no matter what everybody else does.
By the way, there are multiple laws involved, from recording the spoken word to radio to telecommunications secrecy, it’s probably not even simple to change this.
Inkognito wrote:
Basically you are breaking the law, there is no way around it, they have to fine you, and as an added bonus, there is the ZÜP to consider – maybe you’re unreliable, blatantly disregarding the law.
So, as a German, I’d refrain from doing so, no matter what everybody else does.
Exactly.
I can’t cite the law but I was told by an ATCO who is also an instructor that in Luxembourg it is also against the law to record and/or publicize. Hence you will not find live ATC of our frequencies online anywhere.
For Germany I noticed this guy: https://youtube.com/@pilot_frank?si=efdMzI9cPku6sRhY used to record ATC but he has now stopped recently and only records his calls, if that.
Not disagreeing Frans, but why keep laws that aren’t enforced?
Because that is how things are done all over Europe. It is called FUD (that link contained a dumb anti-US rant for many years). And FUD is very cheap, and very effective in circles where the target audience is afraid of anything and everything, and follows all laws, existent and nonexistent 
Look at the Brussels “operator resident in the EU” reg; never been defined properly, but works perfectly in generating millions of income for the FTO industry while cutting back the N-reg scene
Much of mainland Europe has a long history of repression, and pilots are an especially responsive audience for FUD.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I am not aware of anyone doing this but I know that people who asked got told no on the base of the “Fernmeldegesetz”.YouTube is full of German ATC recordings. Pilot_Frank, Pilot Bambi, Guido Warnecke, The Flying Reporter, Matt Guthmiller, Micke Lang, Stefan Drury, Diamond Aircraft etc. to name a few bigger names. And in addition to those, even a lot smaller (German) channels…
The age old argument: “I want to see the prosecution papers in writing or it’s a lie” is simply nonsense.No, it’s not. It only keeps rumors and hangar chitchat alive. Especially when it comes to prosecution, we need to know what really happened, otherwise it becomes all too vague. And yes, there are forums full of traffic violations, where people share experiences with their prosecution and post anonymized copies of their fines. German pilots are also willing to share their fines, for example, the prosecution of pilots who made a low approach over EDDF (Post-Corona) is a proven fact. But it was never proven, that any pilot was ever prosecuted for the publication of some random ATC calls from their own flights, except hearing stories from someone, how was told by someone…
For Germany I noticed this guy: https://youtube.com/@pilot_frank?si=efdMzI9cPku6sRhY used to record ATC but he has now stopped recently and only records his calls, if that.His channel does not focus on ATC or flying from/to international airports. But still, when he was flying to and from AERO Friedrichshafen this year, you hear also a bit of ATC in his videos.
It appears that people have a very different view of the law.
Some appear to be wiling to break it and just wait and see what they can get away with and then ridicule those who follow the law to the letter.
It is really astonishing that we here are discussing the threspasses of folks like the airport-glue-monkeys but ourselves discuss which parts of laws we can break and get away with it. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
Frans wrote:
The age old argument: “I want to see the prosecution papers in writing or it’s a lie” is simply nonsense.No, it’s not.
What many don’t even grasp is that it is not even NECESSARY for such things ever going to court, it is quite enough to get a warning of the possibility of being sued. 99% of people will fold right there as they can’t afford being sued, not least for the fear of lawyer cost, time and the real possibility of loosing.
Peter wrote:
And FUD is very cheap, and very effective in circles where the target audience is afraid of anything and everything, and follows all laws, existent and nonexistent
Of course fear of retribution is one very central piece of law enforcement. Why else would people not become total anarchists?
Uncertainty and doubt should have nothing to do with it. Laws are usually clear, it is those who try to circumnavigate or spin doctor them to suit their own ends who try to spread doubt (is it really illegal) or uncertainty (prove it to me, while it’s all there in writing).
There will always be those who find reasons to park on double yellow line or under a parking prohibited sign, always be those who trespass despite locked doors or drive 100 in a 50 zone and brag about it as well as increasingly more who simply never grow out puberty and are testing the limits. And as our law enforcement today have to pussyfoot around actually taking action against lawbreakers and sit idle while property is destroyed or traffic disrupted out of fear that they get successfully sued for doing their job, it is no wonder that there is doubt on what the consequences will be.
Peter wrote:
Much of mainland Europe has a long history of repression, and pilots are an especially responsive audience for FUD.
Enforcing the law means to keep things civilized as opposed to anarchy. That has preciously little to do with repression in any democratic country where laws are conceived and can be changed by democratic process. Of course laws should be put in question in they are outdated or appear nonsensical, but until they are changed, they are the law. I fail to see the benefit of spreading doubt and uncertainty about the validity and applicability outside that process.
FUD is a great way to get compliance with a law which is meaningless for some reason, but which various cantankerous old codgers like to keep in place, or which cannot be enforced because it was impossible to draft it tightly enough.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Why else would people not become total anarchists?
Because of an innate sense of morality?
