nobbi you are right, there are tail wind limitations for starting, and with free turbine turboprops there is the party trick of getting out and ensuring the prop is windmilling with the wind in the right direction!
I think it’s a great idea, with some reservations. I have come to realize that most people are not like me – I like oddball and old stuff. But what I find on most aviation forums is a pent up need for syndicates or groups that have newer aircraft. One of the most common complaints is that everything is smelly and old in aviation, which is very true. It’s perhaps one of the main reason we’re not attracting new talent. That slight aspirational slant that car enthusiast have always been very good at nursing is sadly lacking from aviation. New pilots want something with brand recognition, not just an old PA28 with an Aspen in it. Anyone can stick lipstick on a pig. No, they want a Cirrus, Jetprop or TBM or something that’s cool. A group for a high end machine could work marvelously, I’d think.
But.
The thing you’ll come up against is financial. You’d need either quite a lot of shares, or some pretty solvent dudes with fewer shares. And that’s the crux – let’s say 4 shares on a used $1 mill TBM. Now each share is $250K+. At that kind of liquid capability, you’re looking at people who could just as well shell out another $500K and get their own plane and not have to deal with a bunch of anal shareholders. We all know the anality of the shareholders/club members increases with the price of the club shares.
If you go the other route – which would be more successful I think – is to have 50 shares at $20K a pop. But then you open up the very real fact that many of them might not even be IR and perhaps a lot less experienced. I wonder if you could even rustle up 50 owners that have both IR, experience and based in the South of England and interested in a TBM? Sounds like almost impossible. Maybe it’s somewhere in the middle? 10 owners $100K each? Might be a market there.
For me, I can no longer share. Just the thought of not having access at all times, following lots of club rules, having to book your use, having to defer to some club general etc is just not something I’m willing to deal with. I’d rather fly something older to not have to do that.
Anyone can stick lipstick on a pig. No, they want a Cirrus, Jetprop or TBM or something that’s cool.
I think there is a rational argument for getting something newer. It’s called “downtime” 
Sure there are owners flying 30+ year old machines who have no downtime but you need to hang around the GA scene for only 5 minutes to realise this is unusual. Downtime is a huge issue, and that’s before you get the the traditional “downtime extenders” e.g.
)Even at the purely-leisure level, some people value availability, while some don’t. I know owners (IR holders) who did < 10hrs last year, and they seem to be “OK” with it. They have other stuff to do, I guess. I would go crazy.
let’s say 4 shares on a used $1 mill TBM. Now each share is $250K+. At that kind of liquid capability, you’re looking at people who could just as well shell out another $500K and get their own plane and not have to deal with a bunch of anal shareholders
But $500k or $750k doesn’t get you a TBM, or anything really capable. It buys you yet another piston machine, with nice eye candy in the panel and de-icing but the same shaking vibrating lump up front, oxygen masks for all, etc. The entry level for a decent mission capability is a Jetprop and actually that does get close to a TBM in many ways, with maybe the biggest exception being the build quality.
A TBM totally outclasses any piston plane. It leaves it totally and completely in the dust. You have FL300, close to 300kt, proper de-ice, radar, a solid build quality. A proper engine which isn’t struggling to stay together with a turbo or two trying to blow it up And the ability to do 500m tarmac e.g. Zell am See.
is to have 50 shares at $20K a pop. But then you open up the very real fact that many of them might not even be IR and perhaps a lot less experienced. I wonder if you could even rustle up 50 owners that have both IR, experience and based in the South of England and interested in a TBM? Sounds like almost impossible. Maybe it’s somewhere in the middle? 10 owners $100K each? Might be a market there.
It would be a complete nightmare.
The SR22 “147” groups which existed in the UK (maybe some still do ) had to let anybody in with a PPL and a checkout. The hourly cost was about £300/hr. It worked OK because most flights were local bird impressing trips to Le Touquet and such. No avionics knowledge needed.
You would not find 50 customers in the whole of Europe. I used to rent out the TB20 2002-2006 and found almost nobody who (a) had an IR (b) didn’t already own a plane – unless they were pulling my leg. I thought airline pilots would be good but most of them don’t want to fly IFR when not working. Big syndicates work great in the C150-PA28 market – very cheap flying, poor availability (weekdays are ok, forget weekends) but it works.
A TBM syndicate would have maybe 3 people, IR holders, high hours (500+), definitely techy types, mission profile being flying around Europe, and each with enough money to buy a TBM outright in a purely financial sense.
The advantages would be
I just don’t see a lot of guys who have $330K in cash laying around who wouldn’t also have access to $1M and therefore could own it by themselves and not have to deal with the anal pain of sharing. The operational costs would be the same, pretty much. But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there is a market for that.
I am sure you could find a small group of people to put together a syndicate like this. Some people want to have access without some of the personal hassles of ownership. People share jetprops, I don’t see much difference with a TBM700.
AdamFrisch – I dont agree.
I think there are a lot more people with a third of the cost, not least because the capital investment is only one part, but one third of the running cost is also a significant number, epsecially as the avaiabilty would be almost no diffference.
I’d do it because regardless of the cost on a newish aircraft I be much happier to split the running costs three ways.
But you’re not splitting the running costs three ways. You’re paying for your own running costs. The only economic advantage you would have is that the fixed costs are split 3 ways. That would be insurance and hangarage and not much else.
Not only do you need to find the right syndicate members in general, but within a very small radius.
I am relatively near Shoreham (just over an hour’s drive) but if I were to join this hypothetical syndicate, that would be too far. I would want the aircraft at my nearest or second-nearest airfield. Anywhere that is more than 20 mins drive away would defeat the whole point as it becomes too high a proportion of the door-to-door time.
AdamFrisch wrote:
But you’re not splitting the running costs three ways. You’re paying for your own running costs. The only economic advantage you would have is that the fixed costs are split 3 ways. That would be insurance and hangarage and not much else.
I would include maintenance in the running costs – am I missing something?
That would be insurance and hangarage and not much else.
And the purchase price
Saving $666k leaves you a whole load of wonga to spend of fuel, route charges, landing fees and handling and, to paraphrase Rod Stewart, on fast cars and fast women and the rest you can just waste
The fuel is cheap (similar to flying a TB20, per mile) but what would shock a lot of SEP owners is just how much you get shafted for landing, parking and handling on a 3T plane.
I would include maintenance in the running costs – am I missing something?
There is the fixed cost and there is the direct operating cost. I think most owners at this level combine the two and work out an hourly cost based on some annual hours, but that is a bit meaningless because the cost of flying one more hour is a lot less.
Anywhere that is more than 20 mins drive away would defeat the whole point as it becomes too high a proportion of the door-to-door time.
I agree, but I think you and I are spoilt
A lot of people drive 1-2hrs to fly. Probably most of those who live in “central” London.
No; I don’t understand it either. If I was in that position I would try to set up a strip at some farm. A lot of people do that anyway, at any opportunity, though there are many issues with that.
