But some things are illegal :-)
My understanding is pretty much the same as LeSving and some others: I don’t think the law says anything specific about a passenger handling the controls. It does not need to, because the pilot is already responsible for everything that happens. But that doesn’t automatically make it legal or illegal.
I currently fly two aircraft types: Cessna 172 and Robinson R44, and I have a very different attitude to them: basically legal in the C172, illegal in the R44.
In a nicely trimmed C172 at a safe altitude, etc, I see no harm in letting a sensible person make gentle control inputs. IMHO it is no worse than the unexpected, unintentional, inputs that anybody can make (in one training flight in IMC my FI accidentally selected full flap with his clipboard, twice).
However, I would never give the controls to a passenger in the R44. Not because of anything I have seen in the ANO or EASA regs, but because the POH effectively prohibits it. The POH says to remove the dual controls with a front seat pax, unless they are a rated helicopter pilot. If I do not fly in accordance with the POH, I deliberately ignore my legal liability for flight safety, and that is what makes it illegal.
Yes but this is nothing to do with safety and generations of pilots have been inspired by being allowed to fly a plane in cruise when they were just passengers. There is just no upside to the discussion.
However, I would never give the controls to a passenger in the R44.
I think a Robinson is a handful for even trained pilots so this makes perfect sense!
In order for something to be regulatory binding in the POH, it must be stated in section 2 for limitations, otherwise it is simply advise and not always good advice.
LeSvig,
I would love to see you argue that a passenger was just “touching” the controls when a youtube video clearly shows him holding the controls and the LH pilot not holding them in a court of law.
The question was clearly: IS IT LEGAL. And the answer is as clear. NO. Within EASA law it is NOT.
So if someone advises a pilot NOT to post a video of him comitting an unlawful act, I think it is sound advise. Particularly with the European mentality where there will be enough people around who will be more than happy to forward such evidence to the authorities.
Neil,
the original question in this forum was just that. is it legal or not. Clearly, after EASA Law it is not. Possibly within FAA rules it may be.
No, I am not at all keen to find out. And I shall withold any comment on the actual act of letting a passenger hold the wheel in the air for a while. BUT, if someone asks if it is legal, then the answer should be honest and straightforward.
Whereas the mania of today to post every thing you do on the internet is concerned, enough people have ridden themselfs into irrecoverable damage by posting stupid pranks and other things on youtube or facebook. Some have faced the law because of that, others have had to deal with much more subtle but nevertheless very serious consequences. Like not finding a new job. Like having to find out that the boss has seen you behave not very gentelman like in your vaccations. Because your work mates find out you fly for fun while you were supposed to be working homeoffice. And so on. People are simply way too careless with what they share.
I’ve caught myself sharing stuff I would not have occasionally and I had to pay the price in the form of hazing or not being promoted or other stuff I still don’t even know. When GA is concerned I don’t care as it is a worthy cause to take the occasional disadvantage, even though the fact that I flew once cost me my job during a RIF when the person responsible said “ah that guy flies, so he must be rich, let’s keep someone more socially challenged”.
So all I am saying is be careful what you post. Be careful what you ask, if you can’t take the answer.
As for “everything is allowed which is not explicitly forbidden”, that works in the US maybe, certainly the opposite is true in Europe, particularly in Germany and Switzerland. So while you may by right with that, I do not know enough about US law, it does not apply in Europe. And particularly not in an environment where your fellow citizens take perverse satisfaction in reporting any apparent wrongdoing to the authorities. Which is a national sport where I live and in other places as well.
In US regulation, if something is not prohibited, it is allowed.
This is obviously true in every civilised country, otherwise it would be illegal for me to ride a bike while wearing pink underpants; there is no law banning pink underpants while riding a bike.
The often expressed view that in Germany it is the other way round is also obviously not true. It is merely that, from what I hear from many Germans, it is a country with an above average % of citizens who will diligently report anything they don’t like. However, reportedly, at the top of that table is Japan.
I come back to my earlier statement that much depends on whether somebody is out to get you. In every country’s GA community there are some p1sstakers who keep sticking a finger up to the CAA, and eventually they get busted for something – maybe not necessarily for what they actually did. A fair number of them get killed, too. Then you get pilots who have p1ssed off some people as a result of having an “above average visibility”; for example the other day I got a threatening email from the owner of a well known maintenance company. Whether he reads EuroGA normally or whether somebody tipped him off I don’t know but I consider the latter more likely. So would I post a video showing somebody else flying my TB20? No. Do I think it is illegal in the UK? No. Do I think the UK CAA would bust me for it? No (because it is IMHO not illegal and because I have never done anything to p1ss them off). Do I think somebody would send it to the FAA and cause me trouble with it? Definitely, because I have already had that done to me, and I don’t want to waste my time on that again, sending a package of supporting docs to the FAA Chief Counsel. Would they bust me for it? No, because based on NCYankee’s post it is not illegal. Could there be hassle? Possibly, because the FAA regard the world outside the USA as a remote outpost in the Universe where lots of weird things happen and the responsibility for dealing with the remote outpost is delegated to certain FAA offices where oversight is, shall we say, reduced.
If I had a video which shows some illegality but which has serious educational value for GA, I would still put it online, but distant and anonymised.
BTW, this is a bit off topic, has anybody ever been done for making a “verbal” claim in a pilot forum, say they flew over central London at 300ft? I don’t think so because you could always say you were merely boasting.
I am German. And it has never happened to me. I have also not been ramp checked once in 20 years. Nobody has ever checked my pilot’s licence. And my driver’s licence was checked maybe 3 times in 35 years.
It’s a cliche, and i think it is wrong. Italy, Spain, Greece are real police states compared to Germany.
And i don’t say that because i’m so much in love with my country. I am not.
Speaking as a half Japanese, that is pretty correct and so there is virtually no crime, vandalism or other rot although there are different societal issues.
“There is just no upside to the discussion.”
I totally agree, but as this is a discussion forum :):
PIC must have a licence and appropriate rating for the aircraft in question etc. S/he is responsible for crew, pax and cargo and the safe operation of the flight from doors closed to shutdown.
Whilst there is nothing that says the pax cannot touch the controls or get involved in some way in the flight, they do not have the qualification, eg licence to do so, so such activity is implicitly not permitted. As the PIC is ultimately responsible, the risk resides with the PIC.
If the PC set the aircraft to fly straight and level and went to sleep, leaving the pax to wake him if anything changed, that would transfer the control to the pax.
Ultimately, many of us probably had the chance pre-PPL to handle the controls, small bank, s&l with some pilot friend. Nobody knew and the CAA won’t prosecute what they cannot prove in the absence of a video.
what they cannot prove in the absence of a video.
A friend had his car repeatedly vandalised outside his house – due to kids from a nearby council estate.
He set up video cameras and got them clearly on the video.
The police told him the video is worthless, because it was not produced and handled in accordance with the rules for handling evidence for a criminal case. He would have needed to pay a private detective to sit there (probably to sit in a car outside all night, at £XX/hour) and do the filming, and that guy would then swear that he handled the evidence IAW the required rules.
Now, you and I and everybody knows that a video is hugely difficult to fake but …
Fair point, surprised the vandals did not bring a data protection privacy infringement claim!
Mooney_Driver wrote:
The question was clearly: IS IT LEGAL. And the answer is as clear. NO. Within EASA law it is NOT.
This is really funny 
Take me through the two snippets below and explain where does it say it is illegal for a passenger to take control of the stick.
Except when under training, a person may only act as a pilot if he
or she holds a licence and a medical certificate appropriate to the
operation to be performed.
f) During flight, the pilot-in-command shall:
(1) except for balloons, keep his/her safety belt fastened while at his/her station; and
(2) remain at the controls of the aircraft at all times except if another pilot is taking the controls.
There is another important thing here. EASA regulations are made to be used throughout Europe. Lots of different countries, different cultures, different languages. Now, if every single person starts interpreting the regulations at will, extending simple words and sentences to mean other things than what is actually written, where would we end up? Maybe it’s time you Germans and Swiss start behaving like normal people and relate to the world like the rest of us? 
Just a friendly suggestion.
As for “everything is allowed which is not explicitly forbidden”, that works in the US maybe, certainly the opposite is true in Europe
Not here. The basic rule here is to be kind and nice and not harm others. Besides that you can do whatever you please. Still, there are more than enough people here also who want to make laws about the color of underwear, and sometimes they succeed. This doesn’t makes it any less ridiculous though.
