PPR: If you have rats in your house, do you block up the hole from the sewer, or do you write an app for them?

GA_Pete wrote:

I’m never going to be convinced we need PPR for anything except a few special cases.

GA_Pete, “we” don’t need it, but it is apparently needed by the others (AD administration that deals with lawyers, NIMBYs, etc)

In reality it often works as PNR + pre-flight…

@dublinpilot

All the ‘explanations’ for why PPR is required in the UK, liability issues etc., are total BS. There is no regulatory requirement whatsoever to impose PPR regardless of the type of aerodrome license.

A public use license requires the operator to accept all traffic. An ordinary license (which is what most have) is for the use of the operator and anyone who has their permission. Many people interpret this as meaning individual permission for each and every flight, which is where PPR comes from as a concept. There is nothing at all to suggest that interpretation is correct and the CAA have never published anything suggesting that they think that is the case.

An operator can simply declare that any qualified pilot in suitable aircraft has their permission at any time. Fenland is licensed and doesn’t require PPR. That has been the case for many years, and if it breached the regs I’m pretty sure the CAA would have had a word by now.

arj1, as Graham says.

Because it has been accepted by too many, it has grown. Probably beyond recovery.
If it’s in the AIP I’ll see it. If it’s not, I don’t need to know. If it’s a private strip with special requirements I’ll be the 1st to happily seek information and permission.

Peter wrote:

There are few reasons for PPR. I can think of these

• planning permission requires it (not actually sure how true this is, despite claims) and the airport probably hates it too
• big fly-ins obviously need to check (anybody organising one and not checking needs a brain transplant and preferably not from Holly Willoughby)
• you have only 3 parking spots
• there are 0.5m deep rabbit holes so only a Maule can land there
• it is a private strip and you don’t want traffic (and the details got published against your will)

Indeed, and there are also these:

• Airfields have max. number of allowed movements per day/week/month/year
• Airfields require someone to be on-site (e.g. Germany, Austria, Netherlands)
• No obligation to publish NOTAM, in case the airfield is unavailable (e.g. snow removal, grass runway too wet etc.)
• Airfields with special procedures, which the owner would like to explain to pilots by phone

Especially in Germany, PPR is often a big hassle, as you need to organize someone to come to the airfield outside operational hours, and many Sonderlandeplätze don’t have regular operational times at all. It is extremely common that PPR gets refused, especially during the week, because the airfield management cannot (or doesn’t want) organize someone to be on-site. Additionally, public airfields with PPR outside their limited operational hours have exorbitant PPR charges, even for home-based pilots, including my former home base.

On the other side, Germany has also quite a lot of public airfields, which you can visit spontaneously during operational hours, without any PPR. Same for the Netherlands, where next to all airfields are open to the public (except airports that require handling) during operational hours.

ErlendV wrote:

The good thing is that myppr.no in most cases has a lot of useful information about the airport. Especially for airports that are not in the AIP or in the «NOTAM-system».

So, for the airports I normally fly to, this is a good thing mostly.

I agree, we have the system also at ENMO but it’s not the only way. Compared with the UK, there’s lots of differences obviously. In Norway we only have two categories of airports (in this respect): Public and non public. If it’s public, it has to be in the AIP system. It has to have opening hours etc etc. For non public airports it’s simple. You need permission to use the land from the owner/operator, and it doesn’t matter if it’s just a unprepared field, or a big airport. Thus PPR is a requirement for everything that is not public.

But, PPR is often made very simple. It could be an announcement that the runway is free to use for visitors, and it doesn’t need to be written even. The word of mouth/habit is used several places, and if the owner does not do anything to object to this usage over some reasonable time, this is good enough as a permission. Unless the airport actually is public (exists in the AIP), then the fitness of the land as a place to land the aircraft, is entirely the responsibility of the PIC in any case. This is also true for public airports outside the opening hours, like Avinor airports.

MyPPR is obviously more of a hobby for the developer, not a money making scheme. Avinor also uses this system for airports outside the opening hours, and for Avinor this is a strict requirement. Avinor perhaps pay for the usage, I don’t know, but there is no cost for the end user, and normally no cost for the airport owner. As it is today, it most certainly is a helpful thing for us pilots.

GA_Pete wrote:

arj1, as Graham says.

Because it has been accepted by too many, it has grown. Probably beyond recovery.
If it’s in the AIP I’ll see it. If it’s not, I don’t need to know. If it’s a private strip with special requirements I’ll be the 1st to happily seek information and permission.

GA_Pete, again, to reiterate the point – I don’t need it, while the AD administration feel that they do need it.
Re: AIP – would be great if people read it. Very often pilots just ignore it (“it is all BS, I’ll just fly there somehow”) and fly all over the noise-sensitive areas etc.
I mean, even if it in the AIP – have you heard what’s happening on the frequency for Manchester low-level corridor?! It is FMC, or listenning squawk! Pilots still tune in, and start speaking, while requesting that transit. :(
I think that is why many aiefields introduce the PPR – after you had you many times a day, every day, you would say enough.

The only time I don’t fly to an airfield without calling in advance is when I forget – which is about 25% of the time. I like to call to ask where to park, anything special about the pattern, is there a code on the gate or the “pilot lounge”, or any other local gouge that I need to know. If no one answers, which is very often the case in France, I just go. If I really need info on an airport and they don’t answer, I start calling flight schools or flying clubs on the field. They have a lot of interest in making sure we don’t do something stupid which puts their business at risk, so they are usually very helpful for a first-time visitor.

I think the website / app PPR is annoying, but I don’t mind calling. Of course, if the PPR is something ridiculous like 24 hours in advance, that’s super-annoying and clearly designed to reduce traffic.

I mean, even if it in the AIP – have you heard what’s happening on the frequency for Manchester low-level corridor?! It is FMC, or listenning squawk! Pilots still tune in, and start speaking, while requesting that transit. :(

Hasn’t there been a few flip-flops in this being class G, Controlled, Transponder mandatory and talk to Manchester, don’t talk to Manchester, Just listen, in the last few years?? Possibly not a good example… And have you tried navigating the UK AIP online?? Thank god for the likes of Skydemon…

And the “official aerodrome charts” in the AIP of many countries appear hell bent on being as complicated to decipher as possible…

Having said that their is no excuse for pilots in these days of Skydemon & Foreflight etc…