Malibuflyer we do have a very strong experimental scene in Europe or at least in France. Our equivalent to the EAA is the Federation RSA which has its roots in designers like Henri Mignet, Delmontez, Piel and Colomban, to name but a few. Take a look at their website.
What we do have is limitations on the use Europewide of experimentals (eg permits, vfr day only etc.) It is a shame that EASA can not get some agreement across the board on these matters, but I understand they are trying to move in that direction.
BTW the RSA is also an association for kit building, plans building, aircraft of special historical interest, and orphans. They can also act to certify such aircraft instead of the need to go to OSAC, I believe. So not too bad but could be better.
172driver wrote:
Are you really telling me that someone is willing to shell out the equivalent of USD 370 for a 172 (that’s the one you mention that costs EUR 1,50 more/minute)? If these prices don’t kill GA in Europe, then not even Putin can.
That are European prices… With our fuel cost (which has just gone up by 30-40 cents) and labour cost (Maintenance / CAMO for a commercial plane) and other overhead, that is where you end up easily. Of course there is the egg/chicken scheme as in prices rise because there are few hours and the hours get less with rising prices, but to keep a reasonably well equipped plane flying, yes, 360 to 400 $ is what you have to expect for an IFR capable airplane. Any Cirrus will be easily 500-600 Euros an hour. Also a reason why twins are dying out but for the DA42.
Also not sure how much of this is recuperation of investment, with me for instance it is pure operational cost and I have to charge now close to € 370 for my Mooney too.
I did quite a lot of rent-a-plane in the US, though none in the last 10 years or so. I remember comparing aircraft rental prices (there vs here). And yes, those are heavily influenced by the rate of exchange…
First rentals were outta Merrit Island, Fla, in 1981… equivalent aircraft could be rented for a 1/3rd of the price from back home.
20 years and many a rental later, this was down to 1/2.
This tells me that EuroGA (no pun intended at all 
) has been able to slow inflation some, whilst the US kind of gave in.
Now even more interesting a comparison would be a per capita income vs leisure capital.
Some of that stuff is reflected in those Price & Earning reports.
Now regarding, my leisure pleasure private flying, I reckon it to be slightly more affordable than when I started flying >40 (🥱) years ago…
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Of course there is the egg/chicken scheme as in prices rise because there are few hours and the hours get less with rising prices,
Reality is actually not that bad: Price difference between renting prices in Europe and e.g. Florida can be fully explained by a) differences in fuel prices and b) VAT/sales tax. Fuel price difference can be almost fully explained by tax (and tax like fees). Difference between avgas and car fuels are generally not substantially higher in Europe than in US.
Therefore lower GA activity in Europe is obviously a pity – but it is not driving substantial cost differences.
@Dan I think with the type of flying you do (ie the type of flying you post about on here) I think you are correct. Bearing in mind inflation over the years, I think it is roughly the same if not slightly less (I can only go back 25 years for this type of flying).
This is on the proviso that one stays away from expensive airports and don’t need the certified versions of all the latest avionics.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Therefore lower GA activity in Europe is obviously a pity – but it is not driving substantial cost differences.
I agree. My point was a bit different however.
Any airplane operation includes fixed and variable cost. The more hours are flown, fixed costs gets distributed over a larger number and threfore, per hour, decreases. Up to a point where increased maintenance will weigh up the distribution.
Quite a few clubs fall into the trap that they get fewer hours on certain types than break even with their costs. So the reflex action there is to rise the price to reflect that. Only then, they get even fewer hours. In the end, those airplanes usually get sold.
What can work better in some instances is however to actually lower the prices so the airplane gets more attractive to renters and will pick up hours. It may need a bit of time until enough pilots get the message and start flying, in which the airplane will run in a loss, but eventually, you end up with a sustainable aircraft rather than a cash dump.
Dan wrote:
First rentals were outta Merrit Island, Fla, in 1981… equivalent aircraft could be rented for a 1/3rd of the price from back home.
20 years and many a rental later, this was down to 1/2.
When I visited the US in 2019, commercial rental prices (in my case Sunrise Aviation in KSNA, Los Angeles area) was actually more expensive that renting the equivalent aircraft from my club in Sweden.
You can find high and low priced aircraft rentals anywhere, when compared with the average. I haven’t rented an aircraft since 2003 or so but I imagine renting at KSNA would be at the high end for the US. First Flight (about 100 minutes drive from KSNA) is at the lower end: Cessna 172s rent from them for $90/hr (€81/hr) wet, with similar rates for other aircraft.
I buy fuel at the lowest priced place within about 50 miles of my base and paid $4.84 for 100LL last weekend, or €1.15/Liter, so fuel prices are rising in the US. Up about 9% in the last few months. What limits fuel price growth is volume of sales, a locally competitive market, self service plus lower taxes. I notice the retail fuel price at First Flight is $4.95, so at let’s say $4.00 per gallon wholesale cost the fuel for their rental C172s will cost about $33/hr, or about 1/3 of the rental price.
A guy I know just bought a Fouga jet trainer as a second aircraft and mentioned to me the only reason it made any sense at $75K was that he’s an FBO employee and gets jet fuel at wholesale price. So maybe the retail markup is more than the ~$1/gallon I guessed.
Silvaire wrote:
or €1.15/Liter
100LL is exactly double the price here at my airfield, it was €2.3x/Liter last time I looked at the price table. So yes, it is a lot more expensive, and it is a pity that it is the way it is. But we won’t change that, so we just have to live with it for the moment.
What happens here is at least some form of development, usage of car fuel or Diesel, to lower the prices per hour a bit, and of course development of new aircraft burning way less fuel than typical american-built planes (no offense included, just comparing apples with pears ). I’ve done a lot of flying in planes burning 3 Gal/h or less. Two seats, of course. It’s fun, too! And then it just doesn’t matter any more.
In 2002 I bought and learned to fly in a 1946 US built aircraft that burned 4 USG/hr or maybe a little less if you cared to make it do so, and it ran fine on auto fuel. It was flown all over the US prior to my ownership, but it did it slowly while carrying 500 lbs payload. If you want to carry weight and go fast you burn fuel. You can nibble around the edges in design for a little lower fuel burn but there is no free lunch. The RVs are probably the best current compromise if you want some level of practicality and speed at a reasonable cost.
I’ve made my living for the past few years supporting development of low fuel burn, long range and long endurance aircraft, for me mainly engine/propulsion related work, and by my observation that’s kind of the way it comes out.
European retail fuel price for both auto fuel and Avgas has hovered around more-or-less double the US price for as long as I’ve been watching (about 20 years). It’s also true for a lot of other things, and in my business (engineering) the take home pay is about half, with some variation depending on the specific country and area of the US. So the pay that’s taken home in an hour tends to go about 1/4 as far in many areas of life and probably a bit less so for flying specifically. Moving outside of Europe to fly, make a living and built a modicum of wealth is the best thing my family ever did, notwithstanding that probably 3/4 of my vacations (40 or 50 trips) over the last 25 years have been in Europe.
