Mooney_Driver wrote:
IMHO: If SERA/NCO clearly say you can fly IFR in G, therefore climbing out of a VFR airfield (which has VMC conditions for take off) through a thin IMC layer whose ceiling and top are fully in G should be possible without violating the need for clearance and all the other IFR requirements laid out with CAS in mind
It’s what everybody thinks except LBA that insists PIC has to “confirm VMC in/out of OCAS/CAS transition” but to be fair they have the right airspace structure to be able to insist on that, in other places you could be 50nm/10kft away before you can confirm anything 
At LOIH you have to climb, at 9kft you can ask Wien FIS for “IFR join” at 14kft before you knock heavens doors, I am sure IFR people in Austria will opine if ceilings are always higher than 14kft?
On what legal basis one can enter clouds IFR in IMC while talking to Golf FIS? there is no separation & no clearance yet, what if Golf FIS hands you over to CAS ATC, then ATC says “cleared VFR in controlled airspace, remain VMC and standby for you IFR clearance”? what if Golf FIS don’t have radars, then ATC finds out that your altimeter encoder failed and can’t offer IFR separation in CAS?
Aren’t people getting a little hung up on the word “clearance”.
Has it not already been established that no clearance is required in class G.
But no one seems to be answering the question as to whether or not you need to file a flight plan to fly IFR in Austria and if so when,where, who with and how one opens that flight plan. Not a clearance just the opening of the flight plan.
We know for instance that the UK does not require one and we also know that its possible in class G to fly IFR without a radio.
gallois wrote:
But no one seems to be answering the question as to whether or not you need to file a flight plan to fly IFR in Austria and if so when,where, who with and how one opens that flight plan. Not a clearance just the opening of the flight plan.
We know for instance that the UK does not require one and we also know that its possible in class G to fly IFR without a radio
If quick read of the Austria AIP counts as answer, it seems no FPL and no radio are required for Golf IFR in Austria
It will be interesting to know what Wien FIS thinks when you tell them you are IMC/IFR in Golf without flight plan?
Will they AFIL IFR for quick transit of controlled airspace? or fly an IAP at controlled aerodromes?
Of course, the pilot has to be IR rated and aircraft IFR equipped for things to stay legit !
i just spoke to a “flying judge” who is at an austrian court of administration.
he said (as far as he could do before doing a “deep research”.) and of course with due caution.
for a legal ifr flight in austria you would need an ifr clearance/flight plan (no matter where you are.).
that is: a legal ifr flight in austria would be defined by a given ifr flight plan/ifr clearance.
(he did not know wether this austrian regulation might be overruled by some new eu regulations at the moment.)
of course you could change from ifr to vfr and vice versa on route without any problems over atc.
changing from vfr to ifr with atc en route (ifr pickup…squawk etc.) with final clearance by atc = establishing an ifr flight plan !
so you could/would just go from ifr to vfr before entering g.
he could not think for the moment (but we were on the phone only for about 30 minutes) of a way going legaly ifr
from an vfr only airport, in g, or without an ifr pickup coming out of g.
cpt_om_sky wrote:
i just spoke to a “flying judge” at an austrian court of administration…for a legal ifr flight in austria you would need an ifr clearance/flight plan (no matter where you are)
From where does he get that from? it’s not in SERA, nor NCO, nor AIP?
Why not clearance/information and flight plan to fly VFR in Austria? I know load of countries that require this anytime you leave aerodrome vicinity, so I think without any clarification this applies to Austria as well
he did not know wether this austrian regulation might be overruled by some new eu regulations at the moment
SERA isn’t exactly very new…
cpt_om_sky wrote:
he said (as far as he could do before doing a “deep research”.) and of course with due caution.
Considering that the current EU regulation deviates from the practice in Austria, Germany and some other countries, I think he should do the “deep research.”
Airborne_Again wrote:
Considering that the current EU regulation deviates from the practice in Austria, Germany and some other countries,
At least for Germany it doesn’t: The problem in Germany is not that IFR in Golf is prohibited but rather that a) due to German airspace structure it is practically impossible to do an IFR flight exclusively in Golf and b) in full compliance with ICAO (and hence EASA) rules ATC won’t clear you IFR in the bottom 500ft of CAS.
The Gedankenexperiement that was brought up to depart in VFR, transit for an cloud layer while still in Golf and enter Echo in VMC becomes purely theoretic in German airspace structure when considering that “VMC” in airspace Echo implies at least 1000ft vertical cloud clearance.
So in Germany there is no practically relevant deviation from the rules. The only thing that is practically relevant is, that LBA in Germany actually take a rule seriously that other CAAs obviously do not (that you can not be cleared IFR in the bottom 500ft of CAS).
from the austrian AIP (legally binding)
Z-flight
The pilot of an aircraft operated in accordance with the
visual flight rules who wishes to change to compliance with
the instrument flight rules shall:
1. if a flight plan was submitted, communicate the
necessary changes to be effected to its current flight
plan; or
2. as required by SERA.4001 b) [ENR 1.10, item 1.2.],
submit a flight plan to the appropriate air traffic services
unit as soon as practicable and obtain a clearance prior
to proceeding IFR when in controlled airspace
from the austrian AIP (legally binding)
d) Class G.
IFR and VFR flights are permitted and receive flight
information service if requested. All IFR flights shall be
capable of establishing air-ground voice communications.
A speed limitation of 250 kts IAS applies to all flights below
3 050 m (10 000 ft) AMSL, except where approved by the
competent authority for aircraft types, which for technical or
safety reasons, cannot maintain this speed. ATC clearance
is not required
