Airborne_Again wrote:
What are we even discussing?
Semantics, in the form of legal text 
LeSving wrote:
But the traffic is, at least the very moment the aircraft leaves the ground.
No one has denied that. What are we even discussing?
Airborne_Again wrote:
Exactly! So according to the definition of controlled aerodrome which @Cttime quoted, ESKC is not controlled, even though it is located in a class C control zone.
But the traffic is, at least the very moment the aircraft leaves the ground.
controlled aerodrome’ means an aerodrome at which air traffic control service is provided to
aerodrome traffic regardless whether or not a control zone exists;
‘aerodrome traffic’ means all traffic on the manoeuvring area of an aerodrome and all aircraft
flying in the vicinity of an aerodrome. An aircraft operating in the vicinity of an aerodrome
includes but is not limited to aircraft entering or leaving an aerodrome traffic circuit;
Airborne_Again wrote:
PS. @Cttime, if you intend to visit Sundbro, I’d be happy to brief you on local procedures.
@Airborne_Again I will be up there week 23 for aerobatic training :-D … sadly I have to drive in.
LeSving wrote:
But only on the maneuvering area of the aerodrome which the CTR belongs to. Lots of other stuff also usually exist within the confinements of the CTR; roads, trains, pedestrians, harbors, cities. The list goes on and on and on Another runway or airport is no different in this respect. What is different with another airport, are aircraft taking off and entering the controlled airspace of the main aerodrome.
Exactly! So according to the definition of controlled aerodrome which @Cttime quoted, ESKC is not controlled, even though it is located in a class C control zone.
Airborne_Again wrote:
But “aerodrome traffic” according to SERA article 2 includes traffic on the manoeuvring area!
But only on the maneuvering area of the aerodrome which the CTR belongs to. Lots of other stuff also usually exist within the confinements of the CTR; roads, trains, pedestrians, harbors, cities. The list goes on and on and on Another runway or airport is no different in this respect. What is different with another airport, are aircraft taking off and entering the controlled airspace of the main aerodrome.
Cttime wrote:
I agree. It does become a controlled aerodrome. From SERA Article 2:controlled aerodrome’ means an aerodrome at which air traffic control service is provided to
aerodrome traffic regardless whether or not a control zone exists;
But “aerodrome traffic” according to SERA article 2 includes traffic on the manoeuvring area! In the ESKC case which started this discussion, ATC is not provided to traffic on the manoeuvring area – no taxi, take-off or landing clearances are given. The airport is uncontrolled.
Then the question is, is ATC service provided to traffic at the non-towered aerodrome. We are discussing an aerodrome where it is class C from the surface up so SERA.6001 applies:
Class C. IFR and VFR flights are permitted. All flights are provided with air traffic control
service and IFR flights are separated from other IFR flights and from VFR flights.
What is interesting is that as AA points out the satellite airport traffic might not be in sight of the tower and that tower might not have radar. How can they provide ATC service?
The question should rather be, “how can they provide separation”, and the answer is: procedurally. (In the ESKC case, ESCM TWR does have radar.)
PS. @Cttime, if you intend to visit Sundbro, I’d be happy to brief you on local procedures.
Thank you all for the answers.
LeSving wrote:
I would say, of course.
I agree. It does become a controlled aerodrome. From SERA Article 2:
controlled aerodrome’ means an aerodrome at which air traffic control service is provided to
aerodrome traffic regardless whether or not a control zone exists;
Then the question is, is ATC service provided to traffic at the non-towered aerodrome. We are discussing an aerodrome where it is class C from the surface up so SERA.6001 applies:
Class C. IFR and VFR flights are permitted. All flights are provided with air traffic control
service and IFR flights are separated from other IFR flights and from VFR flights.
What is interesting is that as AA points out the satellite airport traffic might not be in sight of the tower and that tower might not have radar. How can they provide ATC service?
Malibuflyer wrote:
Legally this might be a valid question (and I assume the answer is: “yes” – see below), but practically it is not that relevant for pilots.
In the case of ESKC which is located inside ESCM CTR, I know that is not the interpretation of ESCM ATC. It has practical consequences as aerodrome traffic at their airport can be separated by visual observation from the tower cab. However, they’ve told us that they can’t separate ESKC and ESCM traffic that way as ESKC traffic is not their aerodrome traffic,
Airborne_Again wrote:
The question is if aerodrome traffic around an uncontrolled airport inside a CTR is also aerodrome traffic for the controlled airport.
Legally this might be a valid question (and I assume the answer is: “yes” – see below), but practically it is not that relevant for pilots.
The exception allowed by SERA for such traffic is made for the ANSP – not for the pilot. Therefore there can be a regulation (published in the AIP) that not prior contact is necessary if you follow a certain procedure and the required clearance is automatically granted. We had this at my home field for some time (before the sector of the CTR has been converted into a RMZ.
From a pilot POV the situation is much easier – and not depending on whether it is aerodrome traffic or not: To fly in a CTR one needs a clearance – even if one gets airborne in the CTR. If the AIP does not state that under certain conditions this clearance is automatically granted, one needs to contact the tower to get one.
