Peter wrote:
Hmmm so the cars hold their price until they become secondhand and only then they fall rapidly.
I thought we were discussing the depreciation of a particular car over time. That is, what percentage value loss there is after X years compared to when the car was new.
The page you linked to seems to compare the price of used cars of a particular make and model (but unspecified age and mileage) this year with the price of used cars of the same make and model (but again of unspecified age and mileage) last year. That might be interesting but not for a new car buyer who “fret[s] enormously about the resale value” – to quote Graham.
That totally beats my reasoning powers
I think not really.
Airborne_Again wrote:
but not for a new car buyer who “fret[s] enormously about the resale value” – to quote Graham.
I said people who buy a new car every three years fret enormously about the resale value, not all new car buyers.
Graham wrote:
I said people who buy a new car every three years fret enormously about the resale value, not all new car buyers.
Ok, but my point was not to criticize you (actually I agree) but that I don’t see how Peter’s link has data relevant for such buyers.
lionel wrote:
In precise technical terms you are right
Of course I am 
But’s that was beside the point of comparing oranges and apple trees The point was that one piece of charger typically has one piece of “nozzle”. And while one piece of gas station can have several pieces nozzles, usually less than half of those are available for you.
Emir wrote:
How many electric cars can be served across given time period on average filling station having in mind that they have to spend at least 40 min there?
Again apples to orange trees. How hard can it be? On average:
100 ICE car will need to fill up the car every 600 km on average (but people fill up much more often)
100 EVs need to fill up every 300 km, but only 95% of the time. Meaning every 6000 km on average. A factor 10 compared with ICE.
How long time do you use each time you fill up the tank with gasoline/diesel? That varies, but perhaps 5 minutes on average. An EV takes typically 20-60 min to fill up. Taking into account the factor 10, then everything below 50 minutes will mean lower usage time of a charger compared with a pump (nozzle). This is the worst case scenario.
A normal scenario is more like this: The last time I needed to charge externally was when going to some Christmas party last Christmas, 2 nights stay. The hotel had lots of AC chargers, so we just drove there, plugged in, and the car was filled up in a matter of hours the first night. No need for any fast DC charger at all. (not entirely true, because it happens from time to time I simply forget to connect the car at home. One time I did that and also had to drive a long bit extra, I had to use a fast charger. But then only for 5 min to get enough charge to get home. It was then showing zero range )
Things aren’t even remotely as problematic in real life as your imagination make it to be. You have way too vivid imagination in the negative direction
Airborne_Again wrote:
Ok, but my point was not to criticize you (actually I agree) but that I don’t see how Peter’s link has data relevant for such buyers.
Yes I agree, it was measuring the wrong thing for the discussion we were having – it was measuring how residuals are holding up year on year.
LeSving wrote:
How long time do you use each time you fill up the tank with gasoline/diesel? That varies, but perhaps 5 minutes on average. An EV takes typically 20-60 min to fill up. Taking into account the factor 10, then everything below 50 minutes will mean lower usage time of a charger compared with a pump (nozzle). This is the worst case scenario.A normal scenario is more like this: The last time I needed to charge externally was when going to some Christmas party last Christmas, 2 nights stay. The hotel had lots of AC chargers, so we just drove there, plugged in, and the car was filled up in a matter of hours the first night. No need for any fast DC charger at all. (not entirely true, because it happens from time to time I simply forget to connect the car at home. One time I did that and also had to drive a long bit extra, I had to use a fast charger. But then only for 5 min to get enough charge to get home. It was then showing zero range )
You are getting more and more optimistic with what you quote. Norway may be different, but there is no way that public chargers in the rest of Europe are on average ‘filling’ up EVs in 20-60 mins. They might top them off in that time, or they might get them from low to ok. Depending on the charge state of the vehicle when it hooks up, filling them in that time requires serious power delivery. Such power delivery increases costs enormously and severely limits the number of chargers you can have in one location because of the size of the power supply required. In contrast when a vehicle is filled up with liquid fuel, exactly how much it takes on (within the bounds of normality) doesn’t matter much to anything.
Norway is totally different. Very few people, unlimited space, unlimited money. You have much to be thankful for.
LeSving wrote:
100 ICE car will need to fill up the car every 600 km on average (but people fill up much more often)
100 EVs need to fill up every 300 km, but only 95% of the time. Meaning every 6000 km on average. A factor 10 compared with ICE.
I won’t argue the exact figures, but the gist of what you write is certainly true for my use. And I (and my wife) drive about 18000 km/year.
Graham wrote:
there is no way that public chargers in the rest of Europe are on average ‘filling’ up EVs in 20-60 mins. They might top them off in that time, or they might get them from low to ok.
I have no experience with what output power chargers in continental Europe typically have, but a DC charger of 50 kW (which is the minimum power you’ll find in a DC charger in Sweden) will take a typical EV from 20% to 80% in less than 60 minutes. This is a typical use case for me on extended trips as I want to keep some margin to empty and also want to avoid stressing the battery with high power charging to 100% unless I really have to.
Airborne_Again wrote:
I have no experience with what output power chargers in continental Europe typically have, but a DC charger of 50 kW (which is the minimum power you’ll find in a DC charger in Sweden) will take a typical EV from 20% to 80% in less than 60 minutes. This is a typical use case for me on extended trips as I want to keep some margin to empty and also want to avoid stressing the battery with high power charging to 100% unless I really have to.
I don’t doubt they exist, but what I doubt is the practicality of deploying them on a mass scale.
50kW is a lot of power. It’s equivalent to 16 old-fashioned three-bar electric heaters running at once, it’s not like just plugging in your refrigerator (to quote something LeSving said a while back). For 60 minutes, it’s £17.50 worth of electricity at current UK domestic rates.
Now imagine the size of the power supply necessary to have 10 of these chargers in a row. Then 20, then 50, then 100….
It may be that you don’t have to worry about this in Norway and Sweden because of the low population density. A couple of chargers e.g. outside a cafe provides the capacity that is needed, even more so because a greater proportion of the population can charge at home so the public charging demand is pretty small, even with full uptake.
But in countries with larger populations and higher population density, where a very significant proportion of the population can’t charge at home, for public charging to support mass adoption of EVs it will need to be on a large scale, i.e. some considerable % of parking spaces everywhere will need to be converted to charging bays. That’s an engineering project and cost almost beyond comprehension.
A normal scenario is more like this: The last time I needed to charge externally was when going to some Christmas party last Christmas, 2 nights stay. The hotel had lots of AC chargers, so we just drove there, plugged in, and the car was filled up in a matter of hours the first night. No need for any fast DC charger at all.
Living in Norway and traveling in 200 km circle is scenario for any technology works. Of course you didn’t take in account the scenario I described, a person traveling from Germany (or Netherlands or Sweden which is pretty common in summer) to Croatia (or Italy or wherever 1000+ km) trying to reach destination with modest infrastructure (or at least not able to facilitate two times more traffic) without 3 to 5 one-hour long stops.
