Communist dream making a come back. Once most of the population will come to realize that ‘green party’ are just rebranded communists, that will most likely fall through. But who knows, people seem to never learn really, maybe it will take another 70 years of misery?
The “green stuff” is still way too expensive to be labelled as “lutte de class” LOL
Living in the capital, then walking or cycling to white collar work is not everyone’s cup of tea….then not everyone can afford a Tesla? it’s a luxury brand
Silvaire wrote:
Indeed. Europe in its current state (including the UK in this regard) again reminds me of Republican Spain in the 1930s. When an ill informed and arrogant intellectual class imposes itself on large masses of people who may have a little more balance and common sense, it can surely spin off in weird and unpredicted directions that don’t help anybody at all. Be careful what you ask for, as the saying goes.
Not to go thread drift, but we are seeing huge outbreaks of civil disorder in Scotland. It goes virtually unreported, but it is there for all to see, if of course, they open their eyes. But alas they do not…..here we go again.
Silvaire wrote:
I know with an EV, without exception, keeps a second car for trips.
Yes and I have a neighbour who has two Range Rovers for the school run. two vans, for work, and their new Tesla which they park in the village at night to make use of the FREE lecky and charger. Feels like stealing she said to me. Never, I thought…
Sure, there are loads of big houses everywhere, with 5 cars parked outside. And there are loads of people with so much money that buying one more 50k vehicle is trivial. Western society is very very wealthy, but more to the point lots of people attach a lot of value to owning lots of cars. These people will happily have a Tesla sitting there. And the bulk of EV demand is currently in this market sector.
But I am thinking of the big chunk of the population which has just 1 or 2 cars, for 1 or 2 persons in the house. These want convergence.
The challenge will be how to grow EV adoption. It’s a bit like growing the GA market from the Cessna/Piper community, to people who would not be seen dead in those types. This was the challenge which Cirrus addressed, with good marketing. In the case of EVs it will take more than marketing; it will have to be done the other way around: the ecosystem will need to arrive first. The current ecosystem is crap for most people. And that is really a government job, which is integral with using a lot of tax collection to fund it. If you hope that private enterprise will build power stations and upgrade the power networks, you are totally kidding yourself! Private enterprise is not even able to install a decent number of good value charging points; check that screenshot I posted from that famous German pilot’s post a short while back (he would have never written that here). Making a decent profit from charging points jacks up the price too much, because there simply isn’t a natural big margin on electricity, the way there is on fuels (which supports millions of petrol stations), so trade discounts are hard to do. Everywhere, electricity is sold to end users at a price similar to trade users. And if a commercial charger adds say 30%, that kills the EV equation for anybody who can use a calculator. And this is what we are seeing here now (a publicly charged EV costs more than a diesel per mile, and that is before accounting for the much higher purchase price) and evidently same in Germany and probably more or less everywhere else (except where subsidised).
But almost nobody will post anything critical of their own country 
@Peter my point (on which we completely agree) was that the only people I know who buy EVs are those that can afford a backup (or three). The rest are apparently scheduled to enter a period in which their lives will be diminished by regulation… unless they live on a small island or the equivalent.
The Cirrus versus Cessna/Piper as Tesla versus VW thing fits the European class based world view but it really doesn’t work like that in the home market. Cirruses are OK but cool guys don’t fly them (nor Cessna/Pipers) – all of those including Cirrus are just grey porridge background, not the objects of envy.
That aside I see a different interesting analogy emerging between planes and cars. Certified aircraft production plummeted in the early 80s partly as a result of type certification issues for new designs – there was no need to buy new when the new one is just like the old one. Trade in long lasting existing used planes and newly built experimental homebuilts now fill the gap. Prices on all types have risen as the fleet gets older, and some are crashed or otherwise removed from service. Meanwhile in the automotive world regulations on new car emissions and safety rose markedly in the same period and old classic car prices are through the roof for people who want at least one car that is unburdened by government control. New cars have also risen markedly in price in real terms, just like new planes although with cars huge production volume has helped to absorb the cost of regulation. If unprecedented EV-only regulations were to stick, given the cost and more so the range limits I can see an automotive world emerging that’s similar to the current GA world, with many people choosing to drive and maintain older cars because within government created market forces it will make more sense to do so. The really special and desirable old cars will be even more costly, continuing the current trend worldwide. But unfortunately there won’t be an Experimental Category for cars almost anywhere.
Peter wrote:
£369 to drive 14,141 milesThat’s unreal, surely. Something big is missing.
I don’t think anything is missing. What do you think might be missing?
I explained the math:
Miles driven: 14,141
Total energy charged: 4,919 kWh * £0.075 kWh = £368
Although as I mentioned, in reality I expect I actually spent around half of this, when considering the free energy from the solar panels and the occasional free public charger.Graham wrote:
But how much did you have to pay for the two EVs?
A couple of k upfront, and around £900/mo for them both on a lease. I was paying a similar amount previously when I leased 2 × ICE cars. I’m not trying to say that it’s cheap or makes sense for everyone to switch, I am simply saying that in my experience, switching from 2 ICE cars to 2 x EVs has been a very positive experience, as well as a financial saving.
If you are getting £0.075 / kWh today, even on the discounted Economy 7 at night (which then makes you pay 2x in daytime), then you are doing well.
I have not gone onto E7 because – EVs apart – my only use would have been an air to water heat pump whose COP is crap at night due to the lower OAT
Also current prices are about 2x higher.
Have a look at https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus/ to see the current rates in your area. It’s not economy 7, it’s a special tariff exclusively for EV users.
The current rate in my area is £0.10/kWh so only a little higher than the fixed term rate I’m currently on until July.
The great thing about this tariff is the discounted rate applies to the entire house, not just the electricity used to charge the car. You’re guaranteed at least 6 hours a day at the cheap rate but we often find we get a lot more.
NicR wrote:
A couple of k upfront, and around £900/mo for them both on a lease. I was paying a similar amount previously when I leased 2 × ICE cars. I’m not trying to say that it’s cheap or makes sense for everyone to switch, I am simply saying that in my experience, switching from 2 ICE cars to 2 x EVs has been a very positive experience, as well as a financial saving.
Well yes, if compared to an alternative position of spending significant sums of money each month on leasing brand new ICE car(s).
But for someone who drives an older ICE that they bought cash and which owes them nothing, the ‘fuel saving’ of switching to an EV is laughable. Your £900 a month just to have the use of the things is probably about what I spend on diesel in a year.
They’ve cost you the upfront payments (couple of k each or for both?) plus £10k+ each year before you’ve driven a single mile. My purchase cost amortised over the expected duration of my ownership will likely be about £700 a year, perhaps less.
Regarding civil disobedience in Scotland at present, all I hear of is football or drug related, as in all Europe.
“I might have missed it but I haven’t seen this thread mentioning anywhere that the EU has effectively banned combustion engines in new cars by 2035 (EU source).”
2048 is what worries me. I’ll only be 94 in 2035. I’ll buy a new deisel, so I can have continued fuel. But I usually find cars give problems after 13 years and at that age I’ll need something reliable.
civil disobedience in Scotland
I thought it was limited to male convicts wearing trousers so tight you can tell his religion, and a blonde wig, all to get inside a female prison, while overthrowing the local government 
@Maoraigh we really must do that Scottish fly-in one day, in your honour
