Airborne_Again wrote:
So “Plug-in electric cars” really mean “Plug-in hybrids”?
No. There are two types of hybrid cars. Plug-in and not plug-in. Traditionally the Toyota Prius is the example of Hybrid but not plug-in. All electric cars are always plug-in 
A plug-in hybrid is (or can be as chosen by the driver) typically all electric for trips shorter than 50 km or so. After that they work as a traditional hybrid (Prius like), but with differences according to how the power train is designed.
LeSving wrote:
No. There are two types of hybrid cars. Plug-in and not plug-in. Traditionally the Toyota Prius is the example of Hybrid but not plug-in. All electric cars are always plug-in
Yes, exactly. That’s why the distinction between “Plug-in electric cars” and “Battery electric cars” doesn’t make sense. As I wrote.
If "Plug-in electric cars” doesn’t mean “Plug-in hybrids”, like aart suggested, then what does it mean?
It makes some sense. Plug-in is always used in relation to hybrid cars. I have never seen it used in relation to battery electric cars, since they are always “plug-in”. At least it does to me. A plug-in is a plug-in hybrid, and cannot be anything else. There is also Hydrogen electric cars They are 100% electric, only not battery operated.
LeSving wrote:
A plug-in is a plug-in hybrid, and cannot be anything else.
So why did you reply with “no”, when that was exactly my conclusion as well!?
The article from which I copied the graphs interpreted it as BEV’s vs plug-in hybrids. Not sure where that would leave the Prius-like non plug-in hybrid, probably in the hybrid category. But sales of these kind of vehicles are likely very low anyway.
Peter wrote
(the % of the population which cannot possibly charge EVs). Someone told me about a recent article by Toyota, where they say they are concerned by that.
Toyota is indeed concerned and as a consequence are looking at fuel cells seriously. They have so far one car, the Mirai, which is certified and sold world wide using hydrogen driven fuel cells. my dealership has one exemplar they (had to?) buy as a demonstrator about a year ago but there are zero takers, even though there are enough hydrogen gas stations around us. Also the range of around 600 km would give much higher flexibility.
By now that car has lost 1/3rd of it’s value and is offered by them for 50k CHF (original price 72k, it’s the platinum edition with all imaginable bells and whistles) and still, no takers. If I had the cash, I would be tempted. In general the fears are the same as with electric cars: No fuelling stations, range, but a) range is massively better and b) refuelling points are getting more and more, as hydrogen is also used by a lot of trucks apparently.
In my neighbourhood there are 2 I could use, of which one which I am passing regularly once a week.
For those who canˆt charge at home or otherwise, imho this is one way to go. It is still an electric car, for all practical purposes, its emission is pure water and it is not dependent on the capability to charge at home.
The other day I saw a comment from the head of Toyota (maybe linked off here, don’t remember), to the effect that pure electric cars are worse “for the planet” than PHEVs. His rationale is that to avoid range anxiety, a straight EV needs enough battery to go say 400 km. But most daily round trips are in the 50-100 km range.So it spends all its time hauling around the battery deadweight for those 350 km it almost never does.
A PHEV has a much smaller battery, plus a small IC engine – say a 3 cyl 1000cc thing like in the Renault Twingo. That, even with fuel, is substantially lighter than 350 km worth of deadweight battery. And it is only rarely used. So over the vehicle’s lifetime, it contributes less CO2 than a straight EV – even assuming that the latter gets all its energy from a 100% CO2-free source, which of course is far from the case now except in Norway and maybe France.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
They have so far one car, the Mirai, which is certified and sold world wide using hydrogen driven fuel cells.
They seem to – very slowly – get traction around here, as I increasingly see them on the road. Still very few.
As an aside, a friend of mine attended a speech given by the Chinese minister of technology a few years back, who essentially said that the future of EVs was not in battery, but in hydrogen vehicles. Don’t know what the current direction of the Chinese EV insustry is now, but food for thought.
johnh wrote:
A PHEV has a much smaller battery
What’s a PHEV??
A PHEV is a plug-in hybrid, which means an electric car with a relatively small/light battery plus an on-board engine. Another description is a hybrid that can charged externally. Either way the idea is that you plug in every night to cover your short commute or local shopping etc. the following day and if that’s short enough the engine doesn’t run much. When you drive further you operate mostly on the small engine with unlimited range, like a hybrid.
The idea with @LeSving’s Mazda Wankel version is that since the engine doesn’t get run much for some people’s PHEV service, the requirements for the engine shift towards power density (i.e. low weight) and away from efficiency and longevity. That describes a Wankel, regardless of tweaks. Mazda has a pretty sharp engineering capability, like all the Japanese companies they experiment but for the bulk of their production they are less likely to get caught up in hype and very focused on long term success and delivering rational value to the customer.
A friend has a plug-in hybrid here. Got it for the generous road tax reduction. He does ~200 mile legs, on which the battery does 30 miles and the other 170 is on diesel.
Kia.
Obviously not a good example of usage!
