True, although airlines will “never” go to LPV.
But UK airlines still have to fly elsewhere outside UK where “RNP27 is in service”? what are they are supposed to do if “never go LPV”? go freestyle “circle to land”, “timed NDB” or grass strips “3D Dead Reckoning” on SkyDemon with wet compass heading while keeping VSI = 5%*(ASI+Wind) 
Can you give examples of such airline routes?
IIRC, there used to be a FlyBe run Southampton/Exeter to Bordeaux, but all of those have an ILS and always will have.
Greece might be an interesting one… but the flights to the islands are flown on a “synthetic ILS” glideslope generated by the FMS+INS.
There are ILS but sometimes to one side only or gets Notammed U/S, Stansted – Bergerac by RyanAir is one example,altought it’s always VMC+1000ft in Bergerac, except during the NDB fiasco in the link above, LCY to Brive by FlyBe is another regular one, in France, you can add few other popular ones like Lourdes, Tours, Beziers, Carcassone to the mix but yes Greece Islands is an interesting user case but weather & terrain is usually docile for approaches over water (tourists won’t go there in Cat3B minima)
I flew pax Transavia Paris to Brest 6 weeks ago, they went RNP on opposite runway, I discovered that latter when I flew locally, that the only ILS available for them nearby was Nantes or LaRochelle (Lorient & Landi maybe but it’s military bases ), all Brest, Quimper, Rennes were Notamed U/S, maybe it’s specific to region or current CV19 situation?
Long story short, I can’t see how they would get away “without flying LPV”
Do they need to plan to have both RNP & Conv in destination or alternates?
This will be tough will all “minimal network cost cutting” going on !
Ibra wrote:
Long story short, I can’t see how they would get away “without flying LPV”
If you have LPV you also have LNAV or LNAV/VNAV. Perhaps those minima are acceptable?
Airborne_Again wrote:
Perhaps those minima are acceptable?
You are probably right but depends on weather but it surely make CAT planning very tight?
I did not dig in CAT conditions much but I had the impression it’s the following:
- You can takeoff in 0ft actual ceiling if you have PA, just visibility on departure airport and takeoff alternate
- You can’t takeoff if actual ceiling is low than NPA minima (LNAV or LNAV/VNAV) on departure airport and takeoff alternate
- You can takeoff in 0ft actual ceiling if you have PA and required visibility on ETA at destination TAF
- You can’t takeoff if forcasted ceiling is low than NPA minima (LNAV or LNAV/VNAV) on ETA at destination TAF
- You will need to add 200ft & 1000m to NPA minima (LNAV or LNAV/VNAV) on your destination alternate TAF
- You don’t need to add anything on PA minima (ILS or LPV) on your destunation alternate TAF
Anyone can confirm these?
The bottom line is that the lack of an ILS, or LPV if you have LPV capability, just affects the despatch date.
And airliners get an “ILS” generated on every IAP – basically it is an INS-guided +V glideslope. Same with bizjets and such with avionics like the Collins Proline; that does the same but using GPS (probably literally the +V which light GA has, via GTN/IFR navigators).
The operators affected will be the ones who are “in between”. There certainly are some, but not many. It may be stuff like the planes doing the Scilly Isles run. But I wonder how many of these have LPV capability?
And most operations to/from islands are done with scud running if necessary; the Channel Islands used to be routinely flown at 500ft above the sea, from places like Shoreham.
Peter wrote:
The operators affected will be the ones who are “in between”. There certainly are some, but not many. It may be stuff like the planes doing the Scilly Isles run. But I wonder how many of these have LPV capability?
Indeed, small/medium operators gets stuffed with no GNSS LPV, big operators may have funky stuff allowed in their practice book which is approved by CAA (e.g. DIY SID, DIY IAP) to get away without LPV but these things tend to fall short going elsewhere, no?
Read the article in this FAA SATNAV News Quarterly about air carriers using LPV. The one for Finair A350 is interesting. It shows that LPV is not exclusively the domain of GA aircraft and some airline companies are noticing benefits. PDF local copy
these things tend to fall short going elsewhere, no?
Again, it depends on the detail; in this case on the actual routes. I would suggest that very few airframes which do the “formerly LPV available” runs in the UK are flying outside the UK also. Especially the Scottish island ops.
Not sure what happened to the Lydd to Le Touquet run, but that one could be scud run at 500ft all the way 
And it wasn’t doing the Scottish islands either.
Finally, remember that the UK has very few airports which have no IAPs (and could have an interest in LPV) but which have full ATC. So the greatest potential for LPV in the UK is airports which are non ATC, and we already know those will be rendered practically useless by the CAA, like Sywell’s six a day limit which is a total joke.
Shoreham’s LPV application is an example of which one would be really useful, because (a) it has ATC so won’t get the above stupidly CAA-crippled job and (b) it has significant terrain (on 20). Had Shoreham got it, I would have probably blown 30k and upgraded my plane to LPV (2×IFD540 looks the current favourite)
some airline companies are noticing benefits
It will probably come, but probably not before the UK manages to save up enough money to launch some EGNOS sats
