And Echo gives you (only) IFR to IFR traffic separation, and VFR traffic info for all if available.
Yes, someone could fly without a radio and transponder and cross paths with a jet descending at 250 kts. Food for thought.
We have had class E airspace above 3000 ft here (Denmark) forever, but it still causes confusion sometimes because it is officially called controlled airspace, meaning that air traffic control is provided here – which it is, but, as mentioned above, only for IFR.
VFR should stick to semicircular altitudes but can otherwise do as they please in class E, including leaving their radio turned off and flying without a transponder. (Neither is recommended, though.)
I posted this in the other thread too, but this may be helpful to understand how class E works in Germany:
Basically, it is our “default” airspace. G only exists below 2500ft AGL, above FL100 it is all class C. The TA is 5000ft or 2000ft AGL if that is lower (near the Alps mostly). Above 5000ft, Germany is also a TMZ.
As a VFR pilot you can more or less completely ignore class E, although it is good airmanship to consider the extended centre lines of IFR airports for collision avoidance.
I would also recommend being in radio contact with Langen FIS, who can give you helpful traffic information (just don’t rely on it).
ivark wrote:
How many people really do fly without a transponder and/or radio in Denmark or Germany in E/G airspace?
Good question. Nobody really knows, but I don’t think many powered aircraft fly without transponder here. I previously experienced FIS giving me “unknown traffic” as primary targets, i.e. from radar data rather than transponder, but it’s rare.
In Bavaria near the Alps: quite a few at low levels And those that fly w/o transponder often do not use a radio either… at least not a route.
Own experience when in contact with FIS and not notified about traffic.
Fun fact: only a few years ago, I was told to leave off the top in the circuit, not to alert the traffic warning systems of low flying airliners/biz jets ;-)
MedEwok wrote:
As a VFR pilot you can more or less completely ignore class E
Not quite: Cloud clearance requirements can be significantly higher for Class E than for class G and respecting them is a Question of safety and not (only) one of legal compliance.
ivark wrote:
How many people really do fly without a transponder and/or radio in Denmark or Germany in E/G airspace?
Very few w/o radio – but lots of gliders and Micro-/Ultralights w/o Transponder
huv wrote:
but can otherwise do as they please in class E, including leaving their radio turned off and flying without a transponder
That is for sure different in Germany – and frankly I thought it is a SERA-rule but not completely sure:
A serviceable transponder needs to be turned on and in a powered airplane a Transponder is mandatory above 5000MSL/3500AGL – Independent of airspace classification
Malibuflyer wrote:
That is for sure different in Germany – and frankly I thought it is a SERA-rule but not completely sure:
According to SERA, class E comes with no requirements for VFR traffic except cloud separation and visibility.
A nice article here on how Class E is implemented to allow IFR operations from uncontrolled fields, concurrent VFR pattern work in marginal weather at some airports and so on. Other airports have local Class E to the ground. The system is well developed, I assume based on experience long before my time.
I’ve spent a lot of time flying a negative transponder, handheld radio aircraft in Class E and D airspace. It was how I learned to fly so natural to me. In 15 years I only ever had one issue with fast moving traffic, having to maneuver out of the way of an L-39 jet that in retrospect was probably descending on approach to an airport 10 miles away or so. It was not a big deal, but obviously it is incumbent on both IFR and VFR traffic to look out the windows in Class E. Lots of hang gliders in some of the areas where I was flying, some sailplanes, lots of everything actually, most (but not all) of it Mode C but not much of it talking to ATC.
If you’re flying a high performance plane in the US once you get above 10,000 ft in Class E, traffic is almost all squawking (exception as below) and there isn’t so much of it. At major airports the Class B is at 10,000 ft and below for that reason.
Probably the most remarkable thing I’ve done in Class E without a transponder is fly with a friend in his Duo Discuss sailplane and look down a mile to see descending airliners, with the sailplane at 17,999 feet or so. The Class E airspace approach tracks of the airliners in that area are predictable, marked on VFR charts and well known to VFR pilots, particularly sailplane pilots.
Malibuflyer wrote:
That is for sure different in Germany – and frankly I thought it is a SERA-rule but not completely sure:
A serviceable transponder needs to be turned on […]
Exactly.
SERA.130001:
When an aircraft carries a serviceable SSR transponder, the pilot shall operate the transponder at all times
during flight, regardless of whether the aircraft is within or outside airspace where SSR is used for ATS
purposes.
Exemptions exist for aircraft “without sufficient electrical power supply”.
