Malibuflyer wrote:
It becomes continuously more obvious, that long covid is a significant challenge and even people that were far away from dying in the acute phase might suffer from significant long term problems
Maybe, but this is also highly an individual choice, considering everyone now have had a choice of getting the vaccine. Vaccines do indeed have an effect preventing people from getting ill and dying. Vaccines is after all the only thing that matters at this time.
However, nothing so far has shown vaccines to prevent corona from spreading. In fact, in the news right now: Last 24 hours we have registered the highest number of infected persons ever since the pandemic started. This last wave started early/mid July. The number of deaths hasn’t increased notably, but the number of hospitalized persons has increased somewhat. But, those (very few) who dies and those who are hospitalized are predominantly older and fragile persons who “don’t believe in vaccines”.
Those persons will get Covid, sooner or later no matter what, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The only thing that can be done, is for those individuals to take to their senses and get a vaccine, considering they know what is best for them. Obviously they don’t, or don’t care, or actually do, who knows?
I mean, people are free to “don’t believe in vaccines” as far as I’m concerned. I’m almost in the same category myself, but my “engineering pragmatism” saves me from certain death 
Deep down, I’m still 100% sure that no bloody Corona virus will ever have a chance against the superbly tuned immune system of this body of mine
There is maybe 15-30 % individual persons of any population on the globe who simply will not take the vaccine. A large enough number to make herd immunity obsolete. If the numbers do not agree with current theories, then statistics and experience certainly shows this to be a fact. Vaccines themselves are only 90% at most anyway, probably more like 80% on average.
Malibuflyer wrote:
In almost all countries it is forbidden to smoke in kindergardens. In most countries it is also forbidden to smoke inside public buildings, restaurants, etc. Is this “separating citizens into two classes”?
No, because non-smokers can still enter these buildings. They are not asked for a QR code showing their non-smokiness.
Like wearing a mask, it’s an annoyance but it doesn’t restrict one’s freedom of movement, nor does it track him/her.
I hear in France, plainclothes cops are sent to restaurants to see if they are not asked for their pass sanitaire Crazy.
Could that be because smokers’ smokiness status (i.e. the dangerous to others part) can be readily identified without needing a certificate?
Of course it restricts smokers’ freedom of movement. Can you enter a building while smoking? No. Clearly that is discrimination.
Re: tracking, i fear that is being way late to the party. Every mobile phone subscription requires proof of id, and every individual simcard can be tracked and located as it moves around. So if someone wants to track you they have something a lot more dependable than your QR code…
They are not necessarily plain clothes. The municipal police can and do go round, in uniform (why hide?) restaurants and bars to check “pass sanitaire”.
It’s an unusual action for France which would normally rely on the honour of the restaurant or bar management that they have carried out such checks.
Oh how Covid is changing the world:)
It’s just that the policy thinking hasn’t caught up with reality yet.
And what is the consequence once they do? Vaccination is still the only way to migate the way this plague affects people and the health system.
However, nothing so far has shown vaccines to prevent corona from spreading.
Funny that something i said months ago now appears to become common agreed fact… some folks took my head of for suggesting that then…
It is almost certain now that Covid is indeed changing the way our society can function for good, exactly by the fact that it is invincible and won´t go away. It has torn the mask of a society which thought very wrongly that we have conquered illnesses of this kind and has shown that society is not willing to fight for a common cause if it means personal inconvenience.
Well, nature strikes back at arrogance and ignorance. It has now become fact that we shall have to live with the virus and with its consequences. And in my expectation, given what has happened so far, it is only a question of time until mutations appear which will overpower the current vaccinations.
That more and more organisations and countries are now losing patience with people who refuse to do their part and get vaccined is just a logical consequence. But once again, too little too late.
I don’t really understand what the problem is now with those who chose not to get vaccinated. As it seems if you are vaccinated you can catch and spread the bug, does it make much difference as the hospitals don’t seem to be overflowing. It also makes vaccine passport requirements to enter shops / restaurants etc rather foolish if both the vaccinated and unvaccinated can be infectious.
We’ve pretty successfully got the most vulnerable vaccinated and given the option for those who want to and those who don’t.
I’m far more concerned by the power overreach of governments. Australia putting a person in prison for 8 months for the crime of planning a protest, shooting rescue dogs in a place where there was no cases, etc.
kwlf wrote:
When you correct for the population sizes, the slopes of the US and European curves are currently in the same ballpark.
Which was exactly my point, and one which I made quite clear for those who were interested in seeing it
Airborne_Again wrote:
ESTA is for all practical purposes a visa system in disguise as you still have to apply and get approval
It’s a good point. I have to admit I’m not really familiar with ESTA, having never had to do it myself. If I’m not
mistaken I recall seeing people doing it on their tablets in line to check in at the airport, also my wife used to do it (pre-US residency) and never even mentioned it. It didn’t seem to be a practical constraint in the sense that a visa would be.
@Off_Field, I couldn’t agree more. Problems are not solved in the real world by attempting to control others. It simply doesn’t work, and tyranny results.
I’m really not looking forward to this upcoming trip, but I hope it will not be as bad as I fear it may be.
Those who are vacced spread the bug but much less than those who aren’t – on average.
Let’s say you go to a keep-fit class; 20 women there On average, 5 will be coughing and sneezing. With a vaccine, it might be just 1 or 2.
Across the population, that’s a huge difference in how this spreads. I think the reason – apart from trash media reporting – why there are claims that a vaccine makes “no difference” to the spread is that in some populations that socialise heavily and close-up more or less everybody will eventually get infected.
Also these areas (low education, etc) will correlate with lower vaccine takeup.
So perhaps the middle bit of [insert your favourite dense and poor inner city name] will get ~100% infected. But that doesn’t mean the whole country will, because a lot of people, perhaps the majority, don’t behave like that.
The supporting evidence for this theory is found if one looks where people are going into hospital. This is where I live, for example
(from here)
Lots of old people here, too…
Off_Field wrote:
I don’t really understand what the problem is now with those who chose not to get vaccinated. As it seems if you are vaccinated you can catch and spread the bug, does it make much difference as the hospitals don’t seem to be overflowing.
I don’t really understand what the problem is with those who chose to fly an airplane without proper training or a license. As it seems if you have a license you can still crash and harm others, does it make much difference as the hospitals son’t seem to be overflowing with people injured in plane crashes.
Aircraft crashing rarely harm the uninvolved so despite the attempt at irony it’s a valid analogy, particularly with respect to pointless medical certification.
I’ve forgotten what percentage of pilots in Alaska are estimated to fly without a pilot certificate, but it is significant. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest, nor does unlicensed but legal ultralight operation bother me, and neither do the pilots I currently know who fly closer to home without the required medical certification. I know of some, having seen their medical situation evolve over time, and like others who know them I say precisely nothing. It’s their problem to manage, not mine, just as those who choose to be unvaccinated (which is and will remain legal BTW) may be placing a risk on themselves if they don’t have natural immunity but aren’t affecting me in any way that I consider a problem.
