Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Glass v. Conventional avionics - reliability

Most of the parts behind the screens in the G1000/Perspective system are easily to be replaced by just sliding out the whole unit and getting it replaced by another unit. At the Cirrus dealers they do the same. But I agree with Peter that if something would be wrong with the Perspective system I would most likely not fly on the Cirrus back home.That said, I still have to see what would then go wrong for this to happen with 2 AHRS and 2 ADC's, no vacuum pump to go broke, etc. Same for the Garmin 430. If that would go broke while in a remote location, you would not easily be able to get it repaired and might not feel like flying it home without it.

EDLE, Netherlands

If I am spending money regularly at a shop including annuals I would absolutely expect them to help out. So far my experience with one in the UK has been good in that regard in spite of only really spending 1k so far there. They have offered lots of free advice so far.

EGTK Oxford

I have had various email comms with Straubing, including asking them to estimate or quote for a job, and I'd say they need to totally overhaul their communications. A little less arrogance (99% less ) would also help. Some Germans I have spoken to agree so it isn't just a "foreigner" issue.

Some people are not bothered by that sort of thing, especially in the present world where so many people cannot be bothered to string more than 5 words together (and many probably can't), not realising that what they wrote is useless and will just result in more questions, but I am.

Here in the UK, the firm which a lot would say is the most competent, gets its competence from one particular man who I have met lots of times and he is the most clever avionics man I know. He is the only one I know who actually understands the stuff, at both the connection and functional level. And his communication is good. But his firm has a habit of gold plating paperwork, by doing DER packages for drilling a few holes which the rest of the world does IAW AC43-13. I nearly gave them the TCAS job, until they came up with the "extra" at the last minute.

I don't think paint shops are such an issue in the UK. There are several good ones around.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I recently spent c. 12k and got a mixed bag. Would I be asking that firm to help me with something? I don't think so, and anyway they did only that one job so would not feel responsible for anything else.

That is very strange. One should think that in a market that is relatively small, word of mouth is such a powerful tool that shops with bad service and work would have a major disadvantage over other shops that perform better.

It is different for airplane makers, avionics companies etc. as there they got you by your balls once you first purchase their gear. Repair shops are plenty, relatively seen.

I can say that in Germany the above theory holds true: a few shops have emerged as the clear leaders with a strong reputation. They do charge more and there might be a waiting list but after terrible experience with others, I learned that in the end it costs you less and it is more satisfying.

For Avionics, this is Avionik Straubing who will go the extra mile. I am sure there are customers with less positive experience (and they do employ some real pricks, one particular comes to my mind) but I regard them very highly. Just last week Wednesday I mailed them a KX-155 radio with a broken display and on Friday morning the same week it was back with me. I did not ask for priority nor did I pay extra. When I had complaints about their work, the reaction has always been "OK, let's see what we can do" whereas the other shops would usually give me the "no, that's how it's supposed to be", "that was not part of the agreement", "someone else must have broken it" BS. And sometimes a "let's just do it" can save you weeks and a lot of Euros over the "according to manufacturer's overhaul instructions blablabla, we can't replace this one screw, we have to send it to the US".

The equivalent in aircraft paint shops is Kronprecht. They are expensive but both people who used them and people that decided to not use them for cost reasons have confirmed to me, worth every Euro.

If there are only crap shops around, why not start one that goes the extra mile? Often in a market with few participants (oligopoly), there is a situation where none of the players starts attacking the others, all are kind of satisfied with the common low standard.

You need a good avionics dealer and a good business relationship.

How very true.

But there are two parts to that one.

The first one (the "good" dealer) either exists or doesn't (within a reasonable distance).

The second one, I am sure, every firm in this business has a view on. Most of them will say that most punters are too stingy to get the service they expect. And that is true. This is what has resulted in the often poor service in that business - the firms are set up to make a living from the tight customers who form the majority, and are unable to deliver the decent project management and QA which those with money rightly expect.

But the bottom line is that a relationship (in aircraft ownership, for sure) has to be bought, with regular and substantial expenditure. If you have a new or nearly new plane, which comes with most or all the kit you want (because you did your due diligence and got it installed in the factory) then you will not be spending money post-purchase for many years, and you will find it very difficult to even maintain email contact with most firms, never mind get a "service" from them. This is what I found, and buying new is a mixed blessing in that respect. Probably your best option for getting service is to keep going back to the dealer the plane came from, which is OK if they are decent.

Whereas owners of "old" stuff are loved by their avionics shops A friend of mine is currently spending c. 70k...

I recently spent c. 12k and got a mixed bag. Would I be asking that firm to help me with something? I don't think so, and anyway they did only that one job so would not feel responsible for anything else.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

You need a good avionics dealer and a good business relationship. I have had several failures and in each case my dealer (45 min flight away) just fedexed a loaner device and asked me to swap and confirm that it is the problem. The arrangement is simple: keep the loaner if it fixes the problem and return the broken gear or send back the loaner if doesn't fix the problem. They don't even charge as long I use them for the repair or they are responsible for the warranty.

Still, if I'm in a remote place without technical staff I trust, I can't imagine a lot of avionics issues that would make me cancel the onward trip. The one I fear most is a snapped alternator v-belt. That requires taking off the propellor on my airplane. I don't know what I would do if that happened to me in Southern Europe.

With everything from the Sandel units upwards, you are very unlikely to get it fixed on site wherever you are. The norm is to swap out the unit and ship the old one back to the manufacturer. With the Sandel and the Aspen units this is trivial for any avionics engineer (in fact, its easy for anyone to do but you need someone to sign off the work), for the G500 it is tricky, and for the G1000 there's no way it can be done without a Garmin trained engineer.

Sure nobody is going to actually repair a piece of modern avionics. One will always swap. Even an altimeter is unlikely to get fixed, in say southern Europe.

The key thing is how possible it is to do a swap yourself, away from base.

A Sandel can be swapped out in as long as it physically takes to pull it out and do the 3 connectors on the back - perhaps half an hour. The replacement has to be configured identically to the old one, and the best way is to photograph each of the config screens on the old one while it is working.

Also it is possible to obtain a replacement Sandel without dealer involvement, both new and overhauled. Exchange, I don't know, though I am sure South East Aero will give you an exchange value of some sort. There will be a substantial loss involved no matter what you do, with pricey avionics. A year ago I overhauled a KG102A, pointlessly as it turned out as the issue was elsewhere, and that was $1k or so.

Can you get a replacement G500 without dealer involvement? I don't believe so. Garmin are pretty tight on selling only to their dealers (much tighter than Honeywell who don't seem to care at all). You can get "used" Garmin kit easily but are there many used G500s? The dealer isn't supposed to sell you just the unit, without him doing the installation, though I am sure it can be "arranged" if you know him personally. I know one shop that readily sells the 430/530 boxes but he won't sell you a 500.

One Garmin dealer told me a new G500 cannot be installed without config codes which only a dealer would have. I have no idea if this is true.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The need to sign up to continued business with a sole supplier is demotivating to me (personally). I prefer 100 or 1000 suppliers than can fix my stuff.

In general I would agree. If only we could persuade the manufacturers to use a standard form factor and interface... As this isn't realistically going to happen, we need to make do.

At least when digital avionics fail, they fail catastrophically, instead of these insidious vacuum failure modes.

With everything from the Sandel units upwards, you are very unlikely to get it fixed on site wherever you are. The norm is to swap out the unit and ship the old one back to the manufacturer. With the Sandel and the Aspen units this is trivial for any avionics engineer (in fact, its easy for anyone to do but you need someone to sign off the work), for the G500 it is tricky, and for the G1000 there's no way it can be done without a Garmin trained engineer.

A friend of mine has a TBM with a recent G500 upgrade - from his videos this looks just a capable as the full G1000 (minus the VNAV functionality) - and he has dual ADAHRS this way. I would choose this over a full G1000 setup any day for the dual ADAHRS and the better AOG utility.

EGEO

With the TBM it isn't the avionics you need to be careful with. Service from the factory is known to be challenging.

EGTK Oxford

I know; I flew the very one

But then a TBM850 owner ($3.5M or so) has the resources to make one phone call and will have a G1000 specialist, with a load of kit, on the next British Airways flight to wherever he is

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
24 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top