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Glass v. Conventional avionics - reliability

Tragic event but very interesting. SR22, flying IFR from Geneva to Berlin, diverting to Zurich after alternator failure.

Well yes but actually an example of poor pilot systems knowledge. Tragic that a problem situation became a pilot-induced emergency. I agree that if you use TA systems you do really need to know them.

EGTK Oxford

the much improved management of the AOG scenario

I gotta agree w/jwoolard on this one - I wouldn't forego modern glass on the back of perceived maintenance superiority of steam tech.

Glass is a fait accompli anyway. The last steam gauge C172 rolled off the assembly line > 5 years ago. Though it's no wonder glass is still rare on the ramp - the avg GA fleet age is probably somewhere between 30-40 years. What's the current AOPA magazine sweepstakes price? A refurbished 1963 Beech Debonair. Yay.

While the early Cirrus Avidyne panels were notoriously flakey, the current G1000 glass is pretty solid, with some redundancy built-in. The whole thing is modular & straightforward to replace. Also you'd have to be pretty unlucky to lose the entire panel. You're much more likely to "just" lose the xpdr, ADC, AHRS or magnetometer. In case of avionics failure, I 'd personally have no problems flying VFR on the backups in non-challenging day VMC conditions to the nearest maintenance shop. Depending on the trip, I probably wouldn't cancel a trip with an inop A/P either.

Also having dealt with my share of busted AI's, vacuum pumps, precession etc, give me a dual AHRS & magnetometer any day. At least when digital avionics fail, they fail catastrophically, instead of these insidious vacuum failure modes.

(now, having said all that, about 2 months ago, a friend of my mine got 3 blank screens on his G1000 TBM850 on 10nm finals, at night - they popped back on after 15 secs; avionics shop haven't figured out yet what happened)

about 2 months ago, a friend of my mine got 3 blank screens on his G1000 TBM850 on 10nm finals, at night - they popped back on after 15 secs; avionics shop haven't figured out yet what happened

They are not likely to, either, if the problem is intermittent...

However, on the TBM, the move from the EFIS40 to the G1000 has been a huge step forward, judged at present time.

The EFIS40 kit is no longer supported by Honeywell, so if something packs up, you have to scratch around for overhauled bits from the USA. And it is very pricey, though not as pricey as Socata's G1000 retrofit cost of $400k...

I like the "modern" separate products; just bought a 2nd Sandel SN3500 EHSI which will go on the RHS to form a second "pilot panel", and the SG102 AHRS which is plug-compatible with the KG102A. Got secondhand but unused kit at a good price. That will enable me to remove the KI229 RMI and that, plus a spare KI229, plus the old KI525, will all go on Ebay.

Also, on a single-alternator aircraft, there is no way to get rid of the vacuum pump. And it gets even more tricky if your autopilot needs a KI256 AI for pitch+roll; there are options but none are even remotely cheap. The G500 is one popular one, the Aspen is a recent one but one avionics installer tells me he's had loads of the autopilot converters pack up.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

However, on the TBM, the move from the EFIS40 to the G1000 has been a huge step forward, judged at present time.

Apart from the little avionics "episode", my friends G1000 TBM850 is an absolutely outstanding piece of kit. The 15" centre MFD console is fantastic. The aircraft itself is amazing. If I was in the market for a personal turboprop (I'm not ), I'd look no further than the TBM.

I know; I flew the very one

But then a TBM850 owner ($3.5M or so) has the resources to make one phone call and will have a G1000 specialist, with a load of kit, on the next British Airways flight to wherever he is

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

With the TBM it isn't the avionics you need to be careful with. Service from the factory is known to be challenging.

EGTK Oxford

The need to sign up to continued business with a sole supplier is demotivating to me (personally). I prefer 100 or 1000 suppliers than can fix my stuff.

In general I would agree. If only we could persuade the manufacturers to use a standard form factor and interface... As this isn't realistically going to happen, we need to make do.

At least when digital avionics fail, they fail catastrophically, instead of these insidious vacuum failure modes.

With everything from the Sandel units upwards, you are very unlikely to get it fixed on site wherever you are. The norm is to swap out the unit and ship the old one back to the manufacturer. With the Sandel and the Aspen units this is trivial for any avionics engineer (in fact, its easy for anyone to do but you need someone to sign off the work), for the G500 it is tricky, and for the G1000 there's no way it can be done without a Garmin trained engineer.

A friend of mine has a TBM with a recent G500 upgrade - from his videos this looks just a capable as the full G1000 (minus the VNAV functionality) - and he has dual ADAHRS this way. I would choose this over a full G1000 setup any day for the dual ADAHRS and the better AOG utility.

EGEO

With everything from the Sandel units upwards, you are very unlikely to get it fixed on site wherever you are. The norm is to swap out the unit and ship the old one back to the manufacturer. With the Sandel and the Aspen units this is trivial for any avionics engineer (in fact, its easy for anyone to do but you need someone to sign off the work), for the G500 it is tricky, and for the G1000 there's no way it can be done without a Garmin trained engineer.

Sure nobody is going to actually repair a piece of modern avionics. One will always swap. Even an altimeter is unlikely to get fixed, in say southern Europe.

The key thing is how possible it is to do a swap yourself, away from base.

A Sandel can be swapped out in as long as it physically takes to pull it out and do the 3 connectors on the back - perhaps half an hour. The replacement has to be configured identically to the old one, and the best way is to photograph each of the config screens on the old one while it is working.

Also it is possible to obtain a replacement Sandel without dealer involvement, both new and overhauled. Exchange, I don't know, though I am sure South East Aero will give you an exchange value of some sort. There will be a substantial loss involved no matter what you do, with pricey avionics. A year ago I overhauled a KG102A, pointlessly as it turned out as the issue was elsewhere, and that was $1k or so.

Can you get a replacement G500 without dealer involvement? I don't believe so. Garmin are pretty tight on selling only to their dealers (much tighter than Honeywell who don't seem to care at all). You can get "used" Garmin kit easily but are there many used G500s? The dealer isn't supposed to sell you just the unit, without him doing the installation, though I am sure it can be "arranged" if you know him personally. I know one shop that readily sells the 430/530 boxes but he won't sell you a 500.

One Garmin dealer told me a new G500 cannot be installed without config codes which only a dealer would have. I have no idea if this is true.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

You need a good avionics dealer and a good business relationship. I have had several failures and in each case my dealer (45 min flight away) just fedexed a loaner device and asked me to swap and confirm that it is the problem. The arrangement is simple: keep the loaner if it fixes the problem and return the broken gear or send back the loaner if doesn't fix the problem. They don't even charge as long I use them for the repair or they are responsible for the warranty.

Still, if I'm in a remote place without technical staff I trust, I can't imagine a lot of avionics issues that would make me cancel the onward trip. The one I fear most is a snapped alternator v-belt. That requires taking off the propellor on my airplane. I don't know what I would do if that happened to me in Southern Europe.

You need a good avionics dealer and a good business relationship.

How very true.

But there are two parts to that one.

The first one (the "good" dealer) either exists or doesn't (within a reasonable distance).

The second one, I am sure, every firm in this business has a view on. Most of them will say that most punters are too stingy to get the service they expect. And that is true. This is what has resulted in the often poor service in that business - the firms are set up to make a living from the tight customers who form the majority, and are unable to deliver the decent project management and QA which those with money rightly expect.

But the bottom line is that a relationship (in aircraft ownership, for sure) has to be bought, with regular and substantial expenditure. If you have a new or nearly new plane, which comes with most or all the kit you want (because you did your due diligence and got it installed in the factory) then you will not be spending money post-purchase for many years, and you will find it very difficult to even maintain email contact with most firms, never mind get a "service" from them. This is what I found, and buying new is a mixed blessing in that respect. Probably your best option for getting service is to keep going back to the dealer the plane came from, which is OK if they are decent.

Whereas owners of "old" stuff are loved by their avionics shops A friend of mine is currently spending c. 70k...

I recently spent c. 12k and got a mixed bag. Would I be asking that firm to help me with something? I don't think so, and anyway they did only that one job so would not feel responsible for anything else.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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