Noe wrote:
You dont HAVE to have your eyes glued to the instruments when doing an approach in VMC, do you?
You don’t even HAVE to do an instrument approach, but it would be nice if it was there anyway, wouldn’t it?
No but if there’s one and I’m doing it, I want to do it properly. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense – pretending that I’m executing instrument approach while flying something else.
Think about these little airports in croatia? Wouldn’t you be happy if the added an LPV even without touching the controlled airspace?
All airports in Croatia worth of landing (properly maintained runways) except Vrsar and Varazdin (LDPV and LDVA) have instrument approach (small exception: when non-towered during weekdays of low season LDLO and LDSB are VFR). All other airports are poorly maintained grass strips. Do I want LPV on such runway? No – I would first like these to be converted to proper runways and then LPV approach can be added.
I can understand that situation in some countries is different but it doesn’t necessary mean it’s better or more safe.
If IMC, then you can keep the eyes inside.
Anyone IR trained knows that you HAVE to keep the eyes inside.
Emir wrote:
Anyone IR trained knows that you HAVE to keep the eyes inside.
Then how to you find the runway (sorry, couldn’t resist. I wasn’t arguing a can vs have when in IMC)!
Emir wrote:
No but from time to time I do it for practicing.
I do it too, but either
a) IFR in a control zone
b) with a safety pilot.
I don’t think it’s fair to disrupt other pilots routes just so that I can do these conveniently at my base (EGSX – which has a 1.8km wide tarmac runway, no approach, but I really really really wish it had, even without tower / it will never get a control zone).
Then how to you find the runway (sorry, couldn’t resist.
At DH/DA of course, but in the few miles before that my eyes won’t be looking outside to scan for crossing non-radio traffic in-between two BKN cloud layers!
No but if there’s one and I’m doing it, I want to do it properly. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense – pretending that I’m executing instrument approach while flying something else.
Emir,
clearly, your a little off track (pun intended). When you fly an IAP, as soon as you break out and it’s VMC below, you are supposed to be looking outside, not on the instruments. Even in class D. There officially is no separation from VFR traffic. If you want to train flying instrument approaches, and it is VMC, you are supposed bring along a safety pilot.
The USA has
much higher standard of pilot training
I am not convinced. I think the standard is as variable as in the UK.
As to this talk about eyes out etc, I think that inevitably the approach, and for that matter the departure, are the busiest times of any flight. Of course eyes should ideally be out of the cockpit, but the reality is they are not for the vast majority of pilots. If you think otherwise you are totally kidding yourself, and I say that having flown with many who are glued to the instruments for the first and last parts of both, and then if they are not it is eyes pretty much straight ahead.
I just dont get why anyone would think it is ok to fly through an approach period, whatever you may or may not be entitled to do.
I recently departed an uncontrolled airport in a twin, and at around 500 feet had a traffic alert. It was a rotary at about 700 feet flying straight through the approach at I guess 150 knots or so (twin turbine). I admit I wouldnt have seen it, but for the alert and I make every effort to get eyes out as soon as possible. The result was an airprox. The rotary had every right to be there, but it was poor airmanship. To make matters worse he hadnt seen me until the last minute.
As to this VMC business, one of the total of four near misses I have had was completing the outbound turn of an NDB/DME under a radar service (in those days). In and out of the clouds and coming out glanced up and there was another aircraft. It is quite a shock at the time. If I hadnt been looking in the right place (my luck not judgement) I guess I would never have seen him and been none the wiser. As it turned out he was working Dunsfold (in those days) and they missed him so I was never given the traffic. Apologies all round. However, its just not pleasant and while that wasnt the other pilots fault today he may well have done the same thing and without a radar service no one would have been any the wiser. Did he need to be there? No, not at all. A quick call on the radio and a request for transit via the overhead would have kept him clear of all traffic, be it in the circuit, or in the instrument procedure. Did he see me, given that he was VMC – no, as he said afterwards never spotted the other aircraft and yet I guess the seperation was less than 500 feet, and I can assure you, I know what 500 feet looks like.
Lydd are great giving transits via the overhead or via the beacon, so if you are coming back from France why would you not just have the courtesy to give them a call and say you intended to transit via whatever at whatever altitude so at least giving them the chance to say we have instrument traffic outbound. If you cant be bothered I also cant see why you wouldnt arrange your flight to go east or west, after all there are the dangers areas to check whether they are hot or cold and you might just as well give the whole lot a miss.
Is it so diffuclt to be courteous and mindful of all users of the airspace? Would you fly through an ATZ without asking? Seems to me if you listen to Farnborough these days this is becoming a lot more common and they are vorever telling people off – why do you think you should be doing so? Isnt it just inviting a near miss?
boscomantico wrote:
When you fly an IAP, as soon as you break out and it’s VMC below, you are supposed to be looking outside, not on the instruments. Even in class D. There officially is no separation from VFR traffic. If you want to train flying instrument approaches, and it is VMC, you are supposed bring along a safety pilot.
You haven’t lived until you’ve been safety pilot for an IFR approach into an uncontrolled field…. and in that role you announce to the PIC that the airspace above the field is now filled with parachutes.
(We’d hoped to be done, back with Approach and flying on to the next airport/practice approach before the meat bombs exited the jump plane)
boscomantico wrote:
When you fly an IAP, as soon as you break out and it’s VMC below, you are supposed to be looking outside, not on the instruments.
Let’s forget me doing self-training. Let’s assume situation like this: non-towered airport, some VFR traffic crossing, landing, whatever, some with radio communication, some without, some with transponders, some without, at altitude 2000 ft AGL or so and BKN025, FEW010. So you can fly VFR below cloud base avoiding low clouds when landing (BTW that’s exactly weather situation I had few days ago at LDSB). At the same time I’m arriving IFR on published approach announcing my positions and listening other aircrafts and looking traffic with transponders turned on (on TAS). I can cancel IFR below 2500 ft AGL and open my eyes for traffic that is completely unaware of the rest of us and non-responsive or I can continue approach to DA which leads to potential mid-air collision or I can go to some other airport. What would you do?
What I can’t understand is how can anybody advocate flying without radio communication and transponder. I’m happy with a bit more regulation if it results in increased safety.
Emir wrote:
I don’t have definite answers to these questions because I come from the environment where instrument approach equals controled airspace with full service delivered to all aircraft.I can’t imagine flying instrument approach and looking ouside except looking for runway when approaching minima. Looking out for traffic that possible interferes with approach path without announcing this and/or being aware of this, without radio and transponder is little bit too much for me.
Well, since airlines do IAPs in IMC in class G and have doing so for decades without incidents, can’t you consider the possibility that it isn’t nearly as dangerous as you think? It all comes down to traffic intensity. Obviously it won’t work at Heathrow.
And just one remark: I started my flying career as glider pilot when I was 16 and have some 300+ glider hours, so I know how to look out and I know how to fly with dozen aircrafts surrounding you.
